Aufruf an Deutschsprachige (Calling German speakers)
Tagged: apprenticeship, german, germany, Tischler
- This topic has 17 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 3 months ago by andyingermany.
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2 May 2014 at 8:12 pm #56701
According to Paul’s latest blog post, there are lots of hits to his site from Germany. Are any active here? I’m based in Esslingen am Neckar in deepest Swabia, doing a normal Tischler Ausbildung (Cabinet maker’s apprenticeship) and wondering of there is anyone else in the region (or on Germany at all) who is interested in doing woodwork like this, as a hobby or even trying to earn money in this way?
Hi Andy,
I’m from the Cologne area. I develop software and work wood as a hobby. I don’t see a way for me to do it full-time or even part-time, due to legal restrictions here. Maybe eventually I can find me a “Tischlermeister” I can work for on a project base, but I don’t know if this will work out.
Greetings to the south,
David
3 May 2014 at 5:21 pm #56715Hallo David…
The legal issues are the main obstacle for me as well. Some ideas I got from other people are:
1: Use a different title: A friend worked as a self-employed photographer without an apprenticeship by calling herself a “Photographic Technician” or similar that wasn’t a protected title. In the same way we could say we are ‘Woodworkers’. Not sure how that works for insurance though.
2: Call ourselves ‘artists’ and get on with it, accepting that we don’t have some of the advantages like a BG behind us, sell things at craft fairs. I quite like this idea and I’m wondering if I can do this with my wife, running a cafe and arts centre which also has a shop. A bike shop near me runs on the basis that they sell bikes, and have to maintain them, so the fix bikes too. The owner doesn’t have an ausbildung, let alone a Meisterbrief, but no-one minds.
3: Register the company in the UK. Apparently some car mechanics do this already so they don’t need a meisterbrief.
Don’t know how easily we can really do any of these, but it’s worth mentioning.
Paul suggests that we form a network or guild of our own and ty and put pressure on for recognition.
3 May 2014 at 7:18 pm #56717Hi Franco.
In Germany trades like a carpenter/cabinet maker come under the authority of the trade guilds. In order to be a carpenter I have to complete a three year apprenticeship working with a company with an accredited master carpenter, alongside a college course. At the end I will need to make a final project and pass theory and practical exams.
After this I can only work at a company under a master carpenter. I’m not ‘permitted’ to be self-employed unless I have completed my master carpenters qualification. This qualification takes another two years and you have to practically be an engineer or mathematician to get through it. It also costs 10 to 15 thousand Euro.
The result is that most self-employed carpenters about are mathematicians. It also means you are probably in debt when you finish the masters qualfication.
Added to this, the people coming through this are very keen to keep the status quo going, having invested so much in it.
If you aren’t a mathematician, or you don’t have the money to pay for the masters, then there isn’t really a plan ‘B’, and technically you’re not allowed to do anything but work for another company.
Wow. I knew Germans were renowned for their efficiency and preciseness; but not to that degree!
I do find that a tad over-the-top though. Surely the standards can be upheld without creating such a barrier for those wishing to be self-employed. I would have thought people would vote with their feet anyway regardless of your qualifications.
Obviously, I speak from a position of ignorance about the laws and customs over there. However, in contrast, in the U.K you can pay a few thousand pounds and train as an electrician in a matter of weeks (much to the chagrin of apprenticed electricians). Admittedly, this has become more regulated, but not by much.
I guess it’s a matter of safety and security for customers. If you deal with a “Tischler/Schreiner” (carpenter/cabinetmaker/joiner), you can be sure of a certain level of education and knowledge and that the person ought to know what they are doing.
The problem with any solution is, that you have to be 100% positiv, that no carpenter can sue you for any reason for what you’re doing. It may not even matter how you call yourself, if you produce furniture, that may already be covered by some law or legal practice. You need to be very careful. It’s never a problem until someone starts looking and wants to get at you.
btw: for all I know the title “Fotograf” (photographer) in Germany is not secured as are others like “Tischler”.
David
In one way, this is probably not so unusual if we think of the status that craftsmen had in society, particularly carpenters, in times gone by. Bakers, butchers, blacksmiths etc, were all pivotal members of the community and highly regarded. Perhaps modern living has diluted the notion of this somewhat, but it’s good to see the value these trades bring still being respected in this way.
It’s a question of how active these guilds/associations are in the regulation of their respective industry.
Thanks for the insight.
4 May 2014 at 7:43 pm #56739Hmm. My son lives in Germany, Leipzig. The rules there are quite restrictive compared to here in England. For instance, to go fishing you need a license as you do here, but to get one in Germany you MUST have done a course, and passed the examination.
I’m an electronics guy, migrated from radio to computers. My qualifications permitted me a few years ago to re-wire a house. They no longer do, and to do any electrical work in a kitchen or bathroom requires such a high hurdle now that only those employed by a large firm can qualify, as personal cost is thousands EVERY year.Ian,
there is some merit to the regulations regarding electricity. I can’t think of a single report in the news that professionally installed electrical systems caused injuries, even if it may happen, it is rare. Bath and kitchen are even more restricted, due to the combination of water and electricity; still you mostly can’t really install any wires on your own, only outlets and lamps; even an oven or stove officially needs to be wired by an electrician.
Regarding fishing, you also need a license for the specific place you intend to fish at.
Suppose we really are overregulated at times here in Germany. 🙂
David
15 May 2014 at 6:27 pm #57161Hello again.
I’ve been off researching and asking questions of people, not the trade guilds, obviously, but other people around.
First the bad news:
The trade guilds can be nasty and aggresive if they find someone being a ‘carpenter’ without a nasters qualification, unless you have finished your apprenticeship as a carpenter and have worked for at least six years as a carpenter, four of them in a ‘leadership position’. Then you can apply for an exception to be made, and apparently this can happen.
The crazy thing is, you can do an apprenticeship as a salesperson or a qualification as a software engineer and then decode to be self-employed straight away, but a carpenter has to do two more years of (frankly often pointless) maths and other subjects to be allowed to do the same thing…
However, there are ways you can work without a master’s letter.
You can register a ‘mobile company’ so you don’t have a workshop, but you work from a vehicle. The guilds seem to think that people who do this don’t do ‘proper’ carpentry so this is allowed.
You can register in the UK, although I’m still not sure how this works.
You can use a ‘Non-protected job title’: for example you can call yourself an ‘artist-carpenter’ (Künstler-schreiner) and try and display your work as ‘art’: If you then make a couple of normal tables, this is generally accepted.
You can call yourself a ‘woodcarver’ and do the same.
You can say you are selling furniture from other people and also make some of your own.
You can work as a self employed ‘theatre set painter’ (or set maker?) and sell normal furniture as well. This could work for me as I’ve a degree in theatre studies…
I got the information for this from the ‘Berufsverband unabhängiger Handwerkerinnen und Handwerker’ (Proffesional association of independent artisans and craftspersons) whose website is here: http://www.buhev.de/ this group seems to be campaigning to make it legal for people to be self-employed as artisans.
If I discover more information I’ll pass it on as and when…
I would say the barriers to entry seem to be intentionally excessive. Possibly so the guild can remain in control of the title and who can perform it. Is this because they know the days for this to happen are numbered?
Also, is this a statute law? I can understand certain titles being protected for the safety of the public and to stop untrained people doing them, but carpentry and furniture-making?
26 September 2014 at 7:42 pm #118552Finally got a bit more information from a carpenter who managed to be self employed without a master carpenters qualification.
His solution was simply to call himself a ‘Kunstler-Tischler” or “Artist Carpenter”. If you do this you can’t work doing stuff for architechts, for example and have to stick to stuff you design and make yourself and you have to work in a way that doesn’t look threatening to the trade guilds.
For example, if you make tables and chairs, then you can’t make them using the same machines and methods as the carpenter down the road.
As most carpenters in Germany use chipboard and machines, this means that using real wood and hand tools would mean I’m not a threat to them.
Problem solved.
Unfortunately the “assiciation of wood wholesalers” in Germany has decided they won’t sell wood to end users, only to busineses, so you’d need to be registered as a business to buy wood (and even then you are in trouble unless it is over one M³). I’m working on that one at the moment.
You also have the problem of finding customers willing to pay for traditional woodwork at a rate that makes it viable.
Still, one step forward…
Thanks for the update, Andy.
It may be worthwhile to befriend a nearby joiner to be able to order wood through him. I don’t think I’m as far in the process as you are, but I figured I would stick to native woods. I can get rough sawn boards of oak, cherry, ash, maple, basswood, beech and even meranti from the local lumber yard. Limitation is a challenge. 🙂 I think those already go a long way. It may also pay to get on good terms with their storage crew in order to be able to pick the best boards.
There are a few “edelholz” dealers on the internet, but prices are probably too steep for anything more than inlay work or small pieces. Sawing for yourself may also be possible.
You will need to register a business anyway to sell your work, so I would think that would help with the wholesale dealers.
I would try to avoid the words “Tischler” or “Schreiner” to stay as far away as possible from the guild.Just a few thoughts really.
Keep us posted.David
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