Buying Woodworking Tools is Becoming Stupid

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #417626
    C White
    Participant

    Had a look on ebay for router planes as I haven’t got any, bar the poor mans which can be a bit cumbersome. The prices are just going up and up, £100-£180 for a router in reasonable nic. It is so unaffordable. Have any of you got any suggestions?

    Cheers

Viewing 15 replies - 31 through 45 (of 116 total)
  • Author
    Replies
  • #428308
    Dave Walker
    Participant

    @dave43

    Had a look at the Quangsheng. Not impressed.

    1) Thumbscrew wrong side of pillar.
    2) Pinch adjustment only.
    3) No depth-stop.
    4) No screw-holes for adding a wider, wooden sole.
    5) Base in two halves with no advantage.

    Overpriced for a copy of small 271/722. Not as functional as vintage 71/71 1/2/071.

    Why re-invent the wheel? Preston Routers were excellent. Copy those.
    With today’s CAD-designing & CNC-milling we’re not talking foundry casting.

    (And perhaps consider a decent wooden storage box, with compartments for cutters)

    #428319
    Edmund
    Participant

    @etmo

    Had a look at the Quangsheng. Not impressed.

    In fairness, quangsheng doesn’t make a full-size router.

    Why re-invent the wheel? Preston Routers were excellent. Copy those.
    With today’s CAD-designing & CNC-milling we’re not talking foundry casting.

    Couldn’t agree more. Seems like an opportunity for some machinist to get their start in the world. IIRC, this was how Glen Drake, now of Glen Drake tools, got his break in the marketplace — he was just a young metalworker / machinist trying to find work, and one of the woodworkers from the nearby College of the Redwoods Fine Woodworking Program (yes, where Krenov taught) came to him because that woodworker had a need and an idea for an improved marking gauge.

    Glen made one for that woodworker, and it was a hit with the other students and faculty, who came to Glen to ask him to make one for them, too. Now he sells lots of his “Tite Mark” marking gauges, including to Lie Nielsen, he has a range of other tools, he even tours around giving presentations for Lie Nielsen sometimes.

    So if there’s some young machinist out there, maybe this is a way to get your name out there. The Preston 2500P is a fine design, and it’s patents have long expired. As Dave mentioned, the full foundry casting route is probably contra-indicated, at least if Walke-Moore tools’ failure is any indication, but that’s good news, as it lowers the cost of entry, and implies a lower cost to market.

    #428422
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    @lorenzojose

    There is a company called Walker Moore that has been trying to produce a gorgeous new router plane based on the Preston, but even after almost 3 years of effort, they simply cannot get their act together. So no help there.

    The Walke-Moore router ( no “R” in Walke) probably shouldn’t be mentioned as an option on this thread. Besides questionable availability, there are other issues.

    They elected to copy the largest Preston 2500, which I consider a mistake.

    Router Plane Model 2500

    It costs $290, (£214, before shipping) which doesn’t seem to answer the cost complaint in this thread and it has its own issues, IMO. It may well come in higher in the next round of production.

    It’s brass construction brings it in at just about a kilo, which is like pushing around a 71 1/2 with an 8” disston number 4 saw on top ( I weighed that combo). Part of that weight is the inclusion of extra metal to accommodate the Preston 2500 style fences, but no fences are made for the tool. I don’t see the value of a heavier router…if I did I’d add some lead or add a hardwood sole the size of the Preston.

    Had they copied the 1399 version of the Preston without the fence slots ( the one I see in Paul’s videos, and the one Tyzak copied) it might have been a more attractive tool, and one that would have required less machining and come in at a more competitive price point. The only thing the fence slots do is obstruct your view of the work, a feature Paul touts with the 1399 Preston.

    http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/routers/preston/

    Being brass, it marks light wood. So you need to add a wood shoe, driving up the weight even more, or spend time cleaning up brass smudges. An alternative might be to add something like a PTFE double stick tape bottom, but that seems temporary and a pain. I suppose you could have it nickel plated for another $70….

    It has a unique and innovative cutter, but only in the 1/2” size. I often use a 1/4” cutter. Veritas cutters will fit, but only if you grind your own, lower, adjustment notch. And you have driven the cost of the tool to over $300 for the added cutter. You could use an unmodified cutter with a wooden shoe on the plane, I Suppose.

    An upside is that it comes with either Preston or Stanley style handles ( or both, for another $30).

    But it certainly doesn’t answer the cost issue, especially if you want a range of cutters and fences.

    I applaud another entry into the router options, and it is certainly a gorgeous tool all polished up, but this one seems like a tool geek oddity, not a serious attempt at providing an essential tool.

    #428439
    C White
    Participant

    @cwhite

    You’re dead right. Tools like the new walke-moore only really cater to the rich retiree who wants the latest shiny bit of metal to improve the aesthetic of his pristine workshop. Whilst they are nice to look at and nice to own, it is a show tool.

    I have now purchased a record 071 for £65 in good condition from a fella on here. I’ll post some pics when it arrives.

    #428464
    Dave Walker
    Participant

    @dave43

    Paul suggested a long time ago, that someone should replicate his Prestons. Why don’t they ask anyone BEFORE production? They must be investing a lot of money on these enterprises.

    I see the Preston 2500’s were shown with TWO fences. Definitely trying to be a ‘Plough-Plane-and-Router’ in one. You can’t use TWO fences that well. You’d never get them tight-enough and still be able move the plane forward. So your groove would be wider than the cutter, and wonky. You press ONE Fence against your reference face, and go.

    Preston’s 2500’s also had a throat-closing device (shoe) to close the throat. What a lot of engineering. But they had screw-holes for the Wooden Sole which closed that. At least Walke-Moore saw the futility of the ‘shoe’ business and omit it altogether. But using cast brass which leaves marks? I’m no genius, not even an Engineer, but I wouldn’t make that.

    #428475
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    @lorenzojose

    In Fairiness, a lot of people pay extra for Lie Neilsen brass Bedrock copies.
    But some people see value in the added weight with a plane. Not so much with a router.

    I believe it was a casting efficacy or bling choice.

    #428484
    Kevin Salmon
    Participant

    @kev32

    Re: Your Depth-Stop idea Larry. Are you suggesting using the Stop on the threaded rod (of say a 71), or on the Cutting Iron itself?
    I’ve been considering a Depth-Stop with Allen grub-screw from a drill bit?

    My Stanley cutters have depth measurements on their side, but I wouldn’t ever consider using them.
    Even if cutters had perfect graticules when new, they’d drift in accuracy as you sharpened them. To think someone probably spent all day in their factory, stamping cutting irons, so their routers would appear more technical.

    Kent. The Garden of England.

    #428499
    Kevin Salmon
    Participant

    @kev32

    I’ve just notice the Date & Time of the Original Post.
    It looks as though you opened your presents around 10:30, didn’t find a Router, so went on eBay by 10:40. Lol

    Kent. The Garden of England.

    #428512
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    @lorenzojose

    Re: Your Depth-Stop idea Larry. Are you suggesting using the Stop on the threaded rod (of say a 71), or on the Cutting Iron itself?
    I’ve been considering a Depth-Stop with Allen grub-screw from a drill bit?

    The one I mentioned is the Veritas depth stop for their small router, which is only one they offer. They make a depth stop for the larger plane, but it isn’t on the website.

    The adjustment post is just under 1/4” on a 71 or 71 1/2. I believe ( but have not confirmed) that the cutter diameter for the small router is 1/4” at any rate, reaming would fix that.

    The other issue it the clearance beween the adjustment post and the cutter, which is pretty small. I’m not home from the holidays, and I don’t remember exactly what that was.
    You may need to grind a flat on the Veritas tool for that clearance.

    What I did was find a thinner grommet in the lighting department of my local rather complete hardware store, drilled and tapped a 6-32 hole in the side and used a 6-32 brass thumbscrew from the same department. These are normally to hold glass globes on lamps. ( I cut it shorter) The thinking was that the soft brass stood less chance of harming the threads on the post.
    You do lose about 5/16 of possible cutting depth or whatever grommet you find, but the Veritas cutters are longer if that is an issue. You might be able to find a small stop collar at a hobby shop that deals in RC airplanes and such, and it would be pre tapped.

    If you choose to put the depth stop on the cutter, it needs to be about 1/2”id if I remember correctly. There are stop collars that size, but you would need to do more grinding to clear the adjustment post, since they generally have a bigger wall thickness and the stop collar would likely be thicker in depth, so you would need to bring the thickness down also, or loose more depth of cut.

    An advantage is that stop collars are pre tapped for a thumbscrew or setscrew. The cutters are hardened, so brass would be less important.

    I have seen reports that some consider the depth stop on the cutter to be more accurate for repeatability. I haven’t found that to be an issue. It is woodworking, not machining metal.

    #428533
    Edmund
    Participant

    @etmo

    It’s brass construction…(snip)
    Being brass,…

    Just to set the record straight, Walke-Moore claim it to be made of bronze, not brass. An important (and costly) distinction. Bronze is stronger, harder, more corrosion resistant, and more abrasion resistant. It does share the flaw with brass that it will leave marks on wood.

    a lot of people pay extra for Lie Neilsen brass Bedrock copies.

    I don’t think anyone pays anything for Lie Nielsen (‘i’ goes before the ‘e’) brass tools — LN make some bronze tools, but no brass tools, AFAIK.

    You can’t use TWO fences that well.

    I believe they are not intended to be used simultaneously as you suggest. As an example, if you were routing a small inlay strip 1/2″ in from both the left and right sides of a narrow component like a rail, stile, chair or table leg, etc, you’d set both fences, and be able to complete your work without having to worry about going against the grain in one of the directions.

    A feature like that might appeal to a professional furniture maker, or perhaps the above-mentioned wealthy woodworker. Perhaps Walke-Moore did some market research which showed it’s existence to be a net positive to their intended markets.

    As Larry said, they are not now a serious option, and perhaps best mentioned as a cautionary tale, although maybe the future will bring positive things from them. If their upscale router does eventually bring them success, they might then turn to Larry’s suggestion of copying one of the 1399’s, use steel instead of the fancier manganese bronze, and bring a nice product at a reasonable price point to a larger hand tool market. Probably wishful thinking, but like Larry, I’m applauding any effort to bring more good routers into the market.

    #428536
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    @lorenzojose

    But using cast brass which leaves marks?

    Yes, and brass or bronze, they warn you of that.

    Please note that bronze tools can leave darkened or tarnished areas on lighter colored woods. This is normal and can be remedied by cleaning up the surface after using the router with a smoothing plane or light sanding or you can attach a wooden sole to the base, an example of which is shown in the pictures (not included with the tool).

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Larry Geib.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Larry Geib.
    #428561
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    @lorenzojose

    As Larry said, they are not now a serious option, and perhaps best mentioned as a cautionary tale, although maybe the future will bring positive things from them

    Maybe, but judging from the rest of their product line, not likely.

    They seem want to position themselves at the high end of the tool market where the margins are better, not to Woodworkers trying to assemble a reasonably priced tool chest. I see more Bridge City than Stanley or Preston there.

    I think they bit off more than they could chew, opting for the model with all the whiz-bang, then finding out produceing whiz and bang were as much effort as the tool itself. Providing all the extra metal and tooling for the fence ways and then not including a fence seems…odd.

    To tell the truth, I see someone like Woodriver as a more likely producer of a 1399 clone.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Larry Geib.
    #429230
    Harvey Kimsey
    Participant

    @hkimsey

    Router planes seem like a unique market. If Veritas is constantly out of stock, the only choice is a fancy Lie Nielsen. I don’t know of any other modern makers. Does WoodRiver make one? I have two Stanleys, on one the base is horribly pitted and not level. But it doesn’t matter as I attached a wood base on it. A good route-in the states at least-is to buy an incomplete one on EBay. The parts and cutters are often for sale on EBay these days.

    #429268
    Alan
    Participant

    @alan141

    There are some beautiful home-made ones out there, even one made from a Bowling Ball.
    They limit themselves to making just the one. Perhaps it’s just too much work for a Cottage-Industry?

    #429338
    Dave Ring
    Participant

    @davering

    Here’s an interesting Preston copy, probably shopmade using an actual Preston router as a pattern.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Edward-Preston-1397-Brass-Router-Plane-Unfinished-Casting-As-Photos/152440390941?hash=item237e27c51d:g:K7UAAOSw4CFYpvrm

    Dave

Viewing 15 replies - 31 through 45 (of 116 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.