Buying Woodworking Tools is Becoming Stupid
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- This topic has 117 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 2 months ago by Ian Lockwood.
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7 January 2018 at 9:15 pm #430558
I sold my No.10. Like most of them out there, it was never used. Looked great on the shelf!
The reason the ones still out there look like they were never used is that they probably weren’t. Carriage makers planes were fragile tools.
Drop ‘em once and they are done.Most of them broke -usiually on the thin cheek part of the casting. A friend of mine deals in old tools, and he told me that of the ones he comes across in the wild, 90-95% of them have a crack that has been repaired by brazing or welding. On EBay, those are called “good users”.
I bought several of my planes in two estate auctions in the early seventies from estates being dispersed by the Studebaker family, who were once probably the largest carriage making enterprise in the World. Conestoga wagons, chuck wagons, and Stage coaches, and most of the freight wagons came from their shops. Absent from those sales were carriage maker’s planes. They just didn’t or survive the industrial environment for long.
The ones that survived the carriage trade probably suffered the indignity of a handyman tool kit. Carpenters and joiners didn’t typically have a use for them and knew they were fragile – except….The other use for carriage makers planes was for timber framing. You sawed kerfs, beat out the waste, cleaned up with a slick, and dressed a tenon with a carriage makers plane which was big enough to do this task in fractions of the time other planes could do this.
The 10 1/4 plane with the tilting handle was designed for this task so you didn’t bash your knuckles on the big shoulders.In this application also, the plane wasn’t being used in a fancy lad joiners shop, it was out in a field being trod into the mud, falling of the log it was set on, and being run over by the mules that were dragging the timber around. ( this was Amish country) They were being used like this even into the sixties when I started.
Why do you think Paul didn’t use a 10 1/2 EVER in making a six-foot Tool Cabinet (with Panelling)?
Probably because number 10’s and 10 1/2 planes weren’t traditionally used for raised panels. A tool with a fence and nicker was faster and more accurate.
And Paul is teaching a minimalist approach. the only version that even had spur nickers is the extremely rare 10 1/4. It would be pointless to teach raising panels to beginning woodworkers with that tool.If you made more than a few panels, you owned a panel raising plane.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Larry Geib.
8 January 2018 at 1:30 am #430689[quote quote=430556]‘C White’, I fear that you have inadvertently poked the bear![/quote]
“… took his stick wiv the horse’s-head handle, and poked it in Wallace’s ear!”
Ironically, we’re all just as guilty for raising those prices. We’re all getting into woodworking, scouring the auction sites, hoping to find a misspelled listing, and out-bidding one-another for those treasures we think we need so desperately.
8 January 2018 at 1:40 am #430693Had a look on ebay for router planes < snip> Have any of you got any suggestions?
Sure, Don’t buy on eBay.
If you want bargains you have to do the legwork the tool dealers do.
Estate sales, auctions, boot sales, garage sales.Tons more work, but thats where the bargains are.
But instead of ten minutes on the web, you’ll have a new way to spend all your Saturday mornings or afternoons.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Larry Geib.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Larry Geib.
To Larry’s suggestion, I would add brick and mortar antique shops and, especially, low-rent “antique malls”. The latter will often house one or two dealers who specialize in old hardware including tools. Prices here are generally lower than eBay and bargains can be found if you know what you are looking at. Best of all you get to actually examine what you’re buying.
Dave
8 January 2018 at 1:45 pm #430943low-rent “antique malls”
You’re giving away all the secrets! 90% of my scores are from these.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Justin Masone.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Justin Masone.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Justin Masone.
8 January 2018 at 5:34 pm #431088And I’ll add thrift stores.
If you are in a larger city in the USA, there will be a Goodwill outlet store. These are when the stuff that hasn’t been selling in the regular stores goes to die. After that, it goes to metal recycling or gets shipped to the third world.
Stuff gets thrown in 4×8 bins and you sort through it. You pay by the pound.
($1.69 a pound for tools)
I haven’t found a router, but Great old saws can be had for $3 and a cleanup and sharpening. Occasionally you’ll find a plane worth saving.i got a type 8 #4 from there once that’s my favorite smoother for under $5. It needed a tote.
90% are junk. But once in a while…
And it is by far the best for picking up odd little Companion pieces to tools.In the bottom of the bins you’ll sometimes find cutters, yankee screwdriver bits, Irwin and Jennings bits, chisels, more hammers than you can carry — all kinds of goodies for pennies.
Success rate is low, but it’s on the way to a board store, so I try to stop in every week or so. It’s like playing the lottery and pretty cheap entertainment.
I’ve been known to buy old furniture there just for the forged hardware on it, and have recycled the hardwood it’s mounted on.
Hand forged chest hinges, handles, and lock for $5. The chest was black walnut.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Larry Geib.
9 January 2018 at 3:30 pm #431643Interesting topic. This is the reason Lee Valley got a lot of my money. Ebay prices seemed reasonable until you added in the shipping costs. Local auctions etc. have now attracted the collectors.
I found I’d rather spend some money and use the time saved doing woodworking or photography (my other passion). That’s just me, others find joy in stalking a good bargain. Different strokes.
@pjgeorge — excellent point. If you factor the time spent finding the “bargain” on a used router plane, it quickly becomes economically questionable when compared to the value of a new (i.e.) Veritas or LN router plane. As said, if you enjoy shopping as much as or more than woodworking, then it’s a different story, but if you’re a woodworker first, the logic goes something like this:
140 US gets you a brand new, flawless LN router plane that is superior to anything Stanley ever produced. Not knocking Stanley, but the precise tolerances to which LN works were never those of Stanley, nor did Stanley have the consistent access to quality steel, nor 100+ years of perspective on the various designs. Factor in that if you spend only 1 hour finding a “bargain” on an old 71, and your time is only worth 20 dollars / hour, then you had better get a museum-perfect 71 for 140 – 20 = 120 dollars, and we all know the chances of that happening whatsoever, let alone in just 1 hour.
Very likely you’ll search on-and-off for weeks, then get something that requires you to spend still more time and money getting the tool into a reasonable state, after which you’ll have a tool that is still not the equal of the LN you could have bought for less. It’s not something you’ll often hear said about LN, but their router plane might be the most economical choice on the planet right now.
10 January 2018 at 12:09 am #431906I completely agree that some tools, especially the No. 71, are going for silly money. I think this is partly the Paul Sellers effect, but also that a lot of eBay “traders” spot the popularity of something (what’s trending) and see the opportunity for a large profit. It’s reflected in the poor, or lack of, descriptions (they clearly don’t anything about the tools), the very high starting bid or buy it now prices, and the ridiculous postage charges.
I picked up an immaculate, complete, No. 71 about 9 months ago on eBay for £80 and thought that was expensive. Now they are selling for £120+ for poor, incomplete ones, and buy it now prices of £150. You certainly have to question the value when you could get a new Veritas or LN for the same price.
I’m personally having more luck at my local car boot sale, where a Tenon or Panel saw is about a quid. They are usually rusted, paint splattered, and look a mess but clean up and sharpen a treat.
The Saturday before Christmas, was Christmas come early, when I got a Tyzak brass back Tenon saw for £1.50, an immaculate, boxed, Stanley No. 4 1/2 for £15, and a really clean Stanley No. 78 10″ Brace and 41 bits (yes, 41) for a fiver, oh, and a wooden marking gauge for a quid.
This past Saturday I got a well used but clean Stanley No. 7 for £30 (the seller wanted £50). I don’t really need it, and I probably won’t use it much but I couldn’t resist. As it turns out, it was clearly owned by a real Joiner or Cabinet Maker, as it is cutting a treat without doing anything to it. It’s so nice to use that I suspect I will find it hard to part with even though No.7s are listed on eBay at £75+. I’m not buying tools to profit but to use, even if it might only be occasionally.
The downside of car boots, is you have to get up early, you can’t predict what will be there and you can go for weeks without finding anything. That said, you get to see and handle the item first hand, you can haggle, and there is a great satisfaction in spotting something at the bottom of a box of junk.
10 January 2018 at 1:33 am #431941The Saturday before Christmas, was Christmas come early, when I got a Tyzak brass back Tenon saw for £1.50, an immaculate, boxed, Stanley No. 4 1/2 for £15, and a really clean Stanley No. 78 10″ Brace and 41 bits (yes, 41) for a fiver, oh, and a wooden marking gauge for a quid.
BRB, booking a flight to the UK…
You don’t have to go that far. At the penultimate local flea market near Detroit back in November I picked up a rusty but sound (except for a broken handle) SW heart era Bailey #7 for $3. It cleaned up fine. On my way back to the car I was stopped by another dealer who offered me a rusty old tool box with an assortment of tools for $20. (I’d previously passed on this at $50.) Inside were a pair of clean, shiny and sharp Disston D12 saws, three old Buck Bros. cast steel chisels, a couple of oilstones and an assortment of files, cold chisels, scraper blades and miscellaneous detritus.
Other times I’ve left empty handed, but the great tacos. sold by a Mexican family, made the trip worthwhile.
Dave
The problem for many of us seems to be the opportunities of finding tools in someother place that is not eBay. I’ve found good tools at flea markets, but normally all I can find is junk. Broken, uncomplete and almost destroyed tools at stratospheric prices. Wooden planes without blades, without chip breakers and without wedge with cracked bodies, for example, for 15 or 20 euro. A folly. Sometimes you are lucky and find any pristine tool with a good price or even a real bargain, but normally all you can find is rubbish. Where I live it doesn’t exist things like garage sales, car boots or things like that. I’ve bought some of my tools in eBay because I didn’t expect to find it anywhere else. Six months ago I bought a Record #044 plough plane for £51. It could have been better, but it’s better than the £110 I saw a few days ago in eBay. It wasn’t “buy it now”, by the way; it was an auction.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Julio T..
12 January 2018 at 8:40 pm #436117Sometimes you are lucky and find any pristine tool with a good price or even a real bargain, but normally all you can find is rubbish.
This is exactly right, and the way it is supposed to be in a free market.
In order to find the pristine tool at a good price, you have to do the work of wading through the rubbish. You can’t expect somebody to post a sale on eBay for the pristine tool and price it cheap. They are going to want what traffic will bear and people will pay more not to do the legwork.Think about it….you see a pristine tool on eBay. Is it reasonable to expect you are the only person who is looking at and wants that tool?
And sometimes the rubbish turns our to be the bargain. I’ve bought tools just for the totes and shiny brass bits to fix other tools, and when I got them home, I figured out all the rubbish needed was a cleanup and sharpening – maybe a tote repair.
Where I live it doesn’t exist things like garage sales, car boots or things like that. I’ve bought some of my tools in eBay because I didn’t expect to find it anywhere else. Six months ago I bought a Record #044 plough plane for £51. It could have been better, but it’s better than the £110 I saw a few days ago in eBay. It wasn’t “buy it now”, by the way; it was an auction.
Where do you live? I’ve shopped on four continents and have never been anywhere where people didn’t have a mechanism for selling used goods.
[quote quote=436117]Where do you live? I’ve shopped on four continents and have never been anywhere where people didn’t have a mechanism for selling used goods.[/quote]
I live in South of Spain. There are second hand tools shops, of course, but you normally found in them only DIY electric tools. A hand tool from time to time, but it is normally in bad condition. There are flea markets, of course, and sometimes there are good things on them. Not very often. But things like the garage sales of USA or the car boots of UK doesn’t exist here.
There is almost no culture of hand tools here, anyway, and when I buy an old tool I’m always asked if I want it as decoration. And just a few of my friends and relatives think as old tools like something useful or interesting. If I was given a coin each time I’ve heard “whats the point of that?”, “that thing is not useful at all” or “electric tools are better” I probably would be rich…
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