- 14 January 2018 at 9:09 pm #438714Greg MParticipant
I’m so happy about this thread. Ive made progress personally because of all of these tips and resources. The biggest concept I was missing was articulated by Shannon Rogers and also, very nicely here by @djenney:
“I quit trying to dig the saw through the wood and now support the weight of the saw more. I imagine I am just trying to slice the top layer of fibers in the kerf and not disturb the ones below.”
Supporting the weight of the saw using the leverage of the bottom handle horn to allow the saw, initially, to glide over the top layers of wood minimized the jarring, catching, and tearing almost immediately for me. Especially so for the larger saws due to their increased weight.17 January 2018 at 6:37 pm #441388sailforfun15Participant
Glen-Drake’s Using a Joinery Saw video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfBvQEih5BE) has a lot of good information and three practice exercises. I just got one of his joinery saws and like it better than my LN dovetail saw. Also, the scooping motion he shows while sawing really does help. A useful companion video on saws is also available on his Youtube channel.17 January 2018 at 11:13 pm #441703MTaylorParticipant
Woodworking guilds have started to pop up all over the US. Search in your area for one. If you can find one but its to far away contact them anyway. The goal of most guilds is to promote the art not make money. They may be able to put you in touch with someone closer to you that would be willing to help.20 February 2018 at 8:48 pm #478270
I might be abit late here. I apologise in advance if this is too basic, but I don’t think anyone above has checked how you hold your saws, and hopfully youve got it right from YouTube.
I’ll double-check anyway: Make sure that you only have your bottom three fingers and thumb wrapped around the handle. Your index finger must point foward and rest against the handle in a pistol grip. This will reduce side to side motion which will jamb the saw in the cut as you saw. It also gives you better rotational control of your cutting angle.
Then place the saw blade exactly where you want it to cut with the teeth at the back of the blade (near your hand) on the far top corner of the wood. Put your spare thumb softly against the side of the blade and firmly against the wood. Hold the wood. Relax, stand comfortably. Draw gently back using your spare thumb as a guide. Move gently foward. As the cut gets deeper, romove your spare hand and get less gentle. Dont become rough with the saw. Let the saw do the work. Dont try to push the teeth down hard into the wood. To get the saw to cut faster drop your hand. To get the saw cut to go more left or more right, twist your forearm with your pinky going in the direction you want the cut to go in. This way you should be able to cut a straight line even with a not set 100%, which is indicated by constantly having to steer left or right on one saw and not the others. Well thats how I do it. Be concious about doing this with every cut until its second nature.
As I said, this might be too basic, but its difficult and frustrating to progress if something like this is holding you back, and it is often something small and easily overcome.
ReUser20 February 2018 at 10:13 pm #478329Ecky HParticipant
Draw gently back using your spare thumb as a guide.
Could you please tell the reason(s) for that first stroke as a pull stroke?
Backround of my question is that Mr. Shannon Rogers recommended that the first stroke is to confidently push forward (with a western push stroke saw).
Maybe it’s similar to the question, whether to cut the tails (“english school”) or the pins (“german school”) first: there are reasons for both variants.
Veni, vidi, serravi.
Münster, Germany20 February 2018 at 10:26 pm #478339EdParticipant
Paul teaches “push first,” too. Otherwise with finely sharpened saws, especially in soft woods and end grain, when you draw back, the saw bounces up the ramps of the teeth, falls on the points of the teeth, and makes little pockets. Then, when you try to push, the teeth get stuck in those pockets. This is why you sometimes feel like the saw gets stuck when trying to start, even though it isn’t binding. But, if you start on the push, he claims this is avoided.
What I do is to unweight the saw and gently rub the teeth along the line until I feel I’m lined up and the saw is lined up. The teeth are just barely scratching the surface. When it feels right, I relax during a definitive push forwards and the saw bites in and defines the cut because relaxing returned the saw weight into the cut. If the saw is dull, it can (and will) still wallow and skate around, but if the saw is sharp, one push and I’m in and relatively secure. If you watch Paul, I think this is really what he does….light rub, then a defining push. Actually, I’m sure of it, because I learned it from him.21 February 2018 at 12:19 am #478407
I went this weekend to the lie Nielsen hand tool tool event when it came to town last weekend (twice).
At the show was Kevin Drake, and he was showing his unique joinery saw. It has no teeth at the start of the saw plate so you can get get a “running” start on your stroke. I have to admit, it worked pretty well.
But instead of the saw, I sprang for a Tite mark gauge with some accessories. That thing is way more than I have spent for a qauge, but man— it is nice.
And I may have to budget for a small high angle brass smoother before I die.21 February 2018 at 2:51 am #478479sailforfun15Participant
One thing I finally realized after using the Glen Drake joinery saw is that I’ve been grasping my saws way too tightly: like a firm handshake or even harder. For some reason, the joinery saw taught me to loosen my grip way up, especially at the start. It works best starting a cut when I just use my hand to lightly guide it. I would not even call it a grip. If I grip it tight I find my cut is off. After I establish the cut I can move faster with a slightly firmer grip.21 February 2018 at 5:43 pm #478965
EckyH, I think you’re right. I’ve given it some thought though:
1- I pull on the first stroke because I’ve always done it, and its how I was taught. Not a full stroke, but running back a bit creates an accurate notch for a good foward stroke. On a cross-cut or end-grain it draws the fibres against the body of wood and severs them, reducing the tear-out that a foward stroke could produce.
2- I had a look at Shannon Rogers’ videos. The video of him cutting the end grain is really good. A foward cut works there. But watch his video on cross-cutting, at 2:15 his first stroke is a small backstroke followed by a confident foward stroke in the notch he created. If I remember correctly, Paul creates a small notch with the first foward stroke, takes a break, then has a good foward stroke. He protects against tear-out with knife-walls. You could also do a foward stroke on the corner closest to you.
3- Each person must develop their own techniques. I dont think that there is a right and a wrong way, as you say, some people cut pins before dovetails, others are adement that that is wrong. But some methods do deliver better results.
Larry – the Kevin Drake saw seems like a great idea. An extreme variation on sharpening with progressively more agressive teeth towards the back of the saw, which in itself might be difficult to sharpen. And good guages are always useful.
@sailforfun. Thats a really good pointer.
I’ll be trying the push first method for a bit, as there is always room for improvement.
ReUser21 February 2018 at 6:17 pm #479001EdParticipant
I realized after my post that I use Paul’s progressive sharpening so the first inch or so progresses from very gentle rake to aggressive rake. This helps with the “gentle rub” before setting in with a definitive push.21 February 2018 at 6:41 pm #479023Ecky HParticipant
thanks for your explanations.
All those different techniques help to ease the start of the saw cut.
In particular for crosscutting I used to make a rather big notch on the waste side of the knife line – big enough that at least 3 teeth of the saw start the cut. Further advantages are (for me) that the cut is right beside the line and the deep notch guides the first strokes.
Veni, vidi, serravi.
Münster, Germany21 February 2018 at 6:49 pm #479026Harvey KimseyParticipant
Instead of paying big bucks for a high-angle brass plane, get hold an old Stanley #3 and hone a 10 degree back bevel on the iron. I’ve found it’s just as good or better.22 February 2018 at 10:44 am #479620
A Stanley number 3 ain’t shiny brass, is it?
🙂22 February 2018 at 7:15 pm #479904
I was thinking how good these forums are for improvement. It’s important to question even the most set habits, which might just be bad habits. And the forums provide a place where knowledgeable peers can ask the questions that would never have been brought up otherwise.
ReUser23 February 2018 at 12:35 am #480102
Supporting the weight of the saw using the leverage of the bottom handle horn to allow the saw, initially, to glide over the top layers of wood minimized the jarring, catching, and tearing almost immediately for me. Especially so for the larger saws due to their increased weight.
His tip to take a step back on your sawing side to open up your stance is also a great tip.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.