Mortise Gauge Faulty?
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- This topic has 10 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 10 months ago by Richard Laney.
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23 June 2018 at 12:40 am #548686
Hi
I recently bought a mortise gauge ‘Irwin Marples’ off amazon. It was one of the only ones that came recommended.
On receiving it I notice that the bar that passes through the main block (the wooden bar that holds the metal pins) when clamped, wiggles from side to side.
Is it usual for mortice gauges to do this. I can see it’s caused by the slight gaps either side of the bar when passing through the main block and since the bar is clamped from the top it still has a cpl of mm to wiggle back and forth at the sides.
If this gauge is to be accurate how can play be taken into effect?
for example, if I use the same face (refference face) to mark both sides of a piece of wood, the first side I mark will be fine but then when I flip the wood over and use the same face for the next markings, the wiggle will cause the bar to drag in the opposite way to what it did on the first marking.
Thus putting the two lines out by a fraction no?
Am I getting this all wrong?
I would like to find out as I may return the item.
Many thanks in advance.
23 June 2018 at 9:08 am #548693The gap you see on the sides is normal. The sides of the beam on all the gauges I have are flat and the top and bottom are slightly convex. The block is the same but the hole is a little oversized both directions. You may not be cinching the screw enough. The curvature of the beam pressed into the curvature of the block when you cinch it shouldn’t allow the beam to move under the normal force you use for marking. Try going a little tighter.
23 June 2018 at 10:14 am #548694Hi Harry
Thanks very much for your response.
No matter how hard I tighten the beam (thanks for the correct nomenclature), there is still a little wiggle from side to side. We’re talking maybe a 1-2 mm but that would be compounded when using in an opposing direction, when marking wood using 1 reference face.
I can’t see with the design of this gauge, how you would eliminate the wiggle. As you say, there is clearance between the beam and block, with the hole being fractionally over sized vertically and horizontally. When you screw down onto the top of the beam, that clamps the beam eliminating any wiggle up and down (if you held the gauge horizontal to your eye line the beam wont move up or down as the screwing down eliminates the excess room top and bottom in the hole by forcing it down) but due to the block being over sized on the sides and the screw only pinching down, this will still allow the beam to pivot from side to side given the small gaps between the sides of the beam and block.
Basically I cannot see how any block wouldn’t do this, if as you say the small gaps on the side of the block and beam exist as standard.
I know this may sound silly but would you grab your gauge, clamp down onto the beam using the block screw and wiggle the beam from side to side and see if there is any play?
I’m struggling to see how this design of gauge would be able to eliminate it given the pivot point created by the screw only creating downward force and there being no way to clamp from the side to eliminated the gaps between the side of beam and block.
Obviously adding a screw on the side of the block to clamp the side of the beam thus eliminating the small gaps side to side, would fix this problem.
Many Thanks.
23 June 2018 at 10:32 am #548695Harry, just had a thought.
The Gauge its faulty. They curvature on the bottom of the block hole (con-cave) should mean that when the beam is pushed down into this con-caved channel, the con-vexed bottom of the beam should match in profile thus hold the beam in place stopping side to side motion.
I have noticed on my gauge that although the beam has a con-vexed bottom, the con-caved bottom of the block hole is not a matching profile
This means the bottom point of the beam only sits in the bottom of the block hole with a very small surface area.
I’m going to return the item. having taken the beam out and looked down the channel (bottom of block hole), it’s all over the place. The beam isn’t even touching the sides of the bottom, its only running long the middle hence why I cannot eliminate the wiggle.
Irwin are really phoning it in these days. I payed nearly £30 for this.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Richard Laney.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Richard Laney.
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You must be logged in to view attached files.23 June 2018 at 1:52 pm #548706Richard, you’re absolutely correct. If the curvatures don’t match you will never get it to stop wiggling. It might even work if the beam was flat and the block hole was concave, but if the beam radius is smaller that the one for the block it can only be touching along a narrow line. My gauges are Crown which I like and some older Stanley models which are also good. I think the Crown gauges are about the same price as what you mentioned – maybe a little more. I’ve got one of their mortise gauges, a plain marking gauge and a cutting gauge and they all work fine. I have no experience with Irwin but this doesn’t surprise me. Irwin tools in the US are sold by Lowes and frankly, I don’t think too much of them.
23 June 2018 at 1:57 pm #548707Hi Harry
Thanks again for your reply.
I have been looking at crown but decided to go with veritas, although not placed an order yet.
The crown gauges here in the UK are around £40 which seems quite high although the veritas are the same price. I suppose I’ve decided to go with veritas as there is nothing that can go wrong in regards to the engineered parts and i like the idea of a cutting disc as opposed to a tearing pin.
Would you say that’s a fair appraisal?
23 June 2018 at 2:35 pm #548712Wheel type marking gauges are very precise and great for matching the thickness of a board. I frequently set one for the thickness of a tail board or pin board and use it to mark the shoulder lines. I’ve got three or four of those of various makes. They all work well. At some point though, you need a mortise gauge. You can get a combination gauge that has a single pin on one side and adjustable mortise pins on the other. They make a dual wheel type as well but I’ve never tried one of those. But yes, a wheel gauge is good to have. By the way, don’t think of the pin as tearing the wood. What you want to do is score it. Let the leading edge of the beam slide along in contact with the part and rotate it just enough that you are dragging the pin along the surface. If you try to hold the beam up off the surface, the pin will try to dig in.
23 June 2018 at 3:04 pm #548717Hi Harry
Thanks
I was looking at the combination veritas gauge (mortice gauge) and I had concluded that a mortice gauge/veritas combination gauge, was vital for the job of cutting mortice and tenons.
I think you could also use the combination gauge as a single gauge too?
I have not done any joinery/carpentry before.
I’m building up tools to give it a go. This tool seems like a vital first step, along with some chisels and sharpening stones. I’m glad I was able to work out (with any knowledge) that there was something wrong with my current mortice gauge.Maybe a good sign lol
I wil also need to buy a few planes.
As far as I’m aware, I need a 4/4.5 plane but I couldn’t find a video where Paul goes through what plane sizes do and what different planes do.
For example the difference between a 4″ smoothing plane and a 4″ standard.
I wish there was a video of someone going through this in detail. Perhaps I’ll put it as a suggestion on Pauls future video requests, although that could take some time.
23 June 2018 at 4:31 pm #548721You’re more than welcome Richard. My Crown marking/mortise gauge works great. The only problem with those gauges is that the little knob that slides the movable mortise pin limits how far the beam can move. That usually isn’t a problem but sometimes you have a deeper gauge line that you just can’t get to. That’s when the old standard Stanley 61 gauge comes in handy. Crown makes a very affordable version of that gauge without all the fancy brass. But if you only had a combination gauge, that would be all you needed for a start.
I live in the US with no Aldi store near me so I don’t have any of those chisels, but Paul swears by them. That level of chisel is all you need. You’ll find diamond stones to be rather pricey. Paul has done some great videos on using a piece of glass or a guaranteed flat granite stone and some sand paper to sharpen. The paper eventually gets to be expensive but just to start, it works just as good as diamond stones do.
To your plane question, the numbers are simply something Stanley/Bailey came up with 150 years ago with a No. 1 being the smallest and a No. 8 being the largest. The 1 and 2 are so small, many think they were made for children. Most of us would rarely use a bench plane smaller than the No. 4 although I have a No. 3 I use from time to time (it’s really a narrow No. 4), but the No. 4 is called a smoothing plane at times – is isn’t two different planes. A No. 4 1/2 is the same plane but with a wider sole and cutter. The No. 5 plane is sometimes called a jack plane and because it’s about 2″ longer that the No. 4, it works a little better for flattening or making a straight edge than the shorter No. 4 does but it also works for smoothing. There is also a No. 5 1/2 which again is just a wider No. 5. Then you get to the 6, 7, and 8 and they become very long. I think a No. 8 is about 24″ in length and most of us don’t really need a plane that long and heavy.
You’ll hear Paul say this many times. A No. 4 is the only plane you need. You can do everything/anything with a No. 4 so that’s the best one to start with. Keep an eye on ebay and you’ll find one in reasonable shape for $50 or less. Paul does a great video on how to restore one and that’s a really good experience that will help you understand how a plane works. But stay away from the newer Stanley’s. There is a site called “hyperkitten” that explains how to date a Stanley plane. I would look for a type 19 or earlier. Stanley quality really took a nose dive when they started making the type 20’s and newer.
Saws are another essential tool and that topic goes all over the place. You have to have something fairly precise with small teeth for dovetails and such and something to rip and cross cut with with larger teeth. Lots of choices out there. Hope this helps.
23 June 2018 at 5:49 pm #548723Harry
Thanks for your detailed and helpful response, as ever.
Great to join a forum and get such help so quickly.
I wil go with the veritas multi gauge then, sounds like a chicken dinner (winner) so far.
In regards to chisels I’ve already purchased a set of Irwin Marples with the clear handles (very much enjoyed by joiners of old, although new stuff is never as good). They cost around £50 but a shame I didn’t catch the Aldi ones, I’m sure they would be cheaper but I doubt by much.
Your explanation of planes was most helpful, I feel like I have a much better understanding of their uses and nomenclature.
In regards to sharpening stones, I have found 3 by the same maker and to the same grit Paul uses. They are the same length, only an inch less in width. His are 3’8 and these are 2’8, They will be fine for chisels but not sure about planning blades, unless i go across the stone instead of up and down the length.
Not much room for movement granted but they come in at £100 for the 3 and are in stock.
I think Paul’s recommendations have exhausted the stock he uses and in the grit he likes and I have no idea when stock will be refreshed. Plus his set are £180.I usually find that if you by the best once, you never buy twice and I want to move on to guitar building so this will be a long journey. Although your comments regarding sharpening stones is correct, I’ll take the risk. But thank you for your thoughts regarding the matter.
In regards to saws I am going to purchase a set of 3 Japanese saws
They should be perfect for what I’m wanting to do so far, which is make a side gate and some basic furniture, plus cutting tenons. Unless you think otherwise?
I did want a set of Japanese Chisels but in the spirit of your sharpening stone recommendation, I puled back from spending £100’s to spending £50.
I’m trying to be sensible lol
I havebeen looking on ebay at old planers but am nervous about buying anything as I don’t understand the issues I could face. Perhaps I could link to you some finds and you could let me know if I should go for them? I’ll keep the links to a minimum.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Richard Laney.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Richard Laney.
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