Starting projects of an absolute beginner
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The only thing better than testing finish on scrap is testing it on your piece. Huh? What? The idea is that there is so much variation piece to piece or even within a piece that you can fool yourself working on scraps. So, one trick, which I learned from my finishing teacher (Charles Neil) is to test your finish while you are are surfacing your rough wood. You skim just enough from the rough timber to apply some color and experiment. You want to be fat enough that planing down to dimension will remove your experiments, and you must be aware that some colors do penetrate, especially in figured wood. Being aware of using a equalizing color coat can help.
Another thing to be aware of is that color changes the way we see the wood. Curly maple is a great example. The curl comes from blotching and often becomes the dominant figure, hiding the figure from the growth rings. Also, some wood looks different from different angles and this is heightened when color is added. This is why bookmatching sometimes doesn’t work and you end up with one half of the panel looking darker than the other half…but if you rotate one side 180 degrees (undoing the bookmatch and producing what some call a slip-match) will even out the darkness. The point is that sometimes one even applies color via a dye on a shaped or planed piece to be absolutely sure what the figure will look like in the final piece. This requires knowing about what Charles calls “trace coats” which are very pale, light dye coats that are intended to be sanded or scraped off. (Sometimes you cannot use them no matter what, though).
So, yes, test on scrap, but there are other tricks, too. Bottom line….start playing with finishing and gluing as soon as possible.
10 June 2017 at 4:09 pm #312698Wow, that that is a lot of really good advice. Thank you very much!
Testing out finishes, dyes/ stains is a good idea. I really need to read up on that. I planned on using boiled linseed oil on the sawbench, I need to plane the benchtop again though. I would use that on the benchhook as well.
I saw a video about using vinegar-rust-solutions as stain for wood, that looked interesting. i don’t know, if that would have much effect on spruce though.The advice about the grain direction is great. I have not yet read up on wood movement and changes depending on temperature and humidity.
There is soo much to learn 🙂
Last night I cut myself into my right thumb, when I was unwrapping a cheap spokeshave. The shop assistant said, that it definatly would need sharpening before using it on wood. Well, it was plenty sharp enough for my thumb, so no woodworking for me today.
At the risk of starting World War III, I’d say forget about linseed oil. It takes forever to dry and you need to deal with the oil soaked rags. There are many things that are much better. I’m not sure I’d even put finish on a bench. If I did, I’d probably use a water based product just because it is easy, durable, and easy to clean up. Being able to clean with water rather than solvents is a big deal to me let alone avoiding solvents in the finish itself. The down side of water borne is that it doesn’t repair well, e.g., like shellac. Waterlox is oil based, dries in a reasonable time, and people claim it is repairable. I’ve only played with it a little (finished one chair) and did one little experiment repairing. Typical of an oil, it likes to run / sag on vertical surfaces.
11 June 2017 at 7:59 am #312705What would you suggest? I live in Germany, so I would need something that is available here, or at least in Europe.
You are right about the bench, it does not need to be pretty, it will get dinged and scratched up all the time I guess. It just needs something, to protect it a bit from an occasional drop of rain, that will get blown onto the balcony.
Well, that linseed stuff is what I have at hand right now, so I put on a first coat onto the benchhook, even before breakfast. I like how it turned the pale spruce to a more yellowy golden color. I am curious, if it will stay that way or change back once it is dry.
I did some research where to get the materials for that chair, and I decided, that I would like to get a ripsaw. I have a japanese ryoba saw, but ripping wood to the right thickness with only a 25cm/ 10″ blade is no fun.
I just need to figure out what would be the best length for me and what would be a good TPI count. And of course, how to take care of it and sharpen it. Probably a saw from Thomas Flinn, either Pax, Lynx or William Greaves. Does anyone of you know the difference between them,since the price for them is so different.- This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Pepper Pot.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Pepper Pot.
[quote quote=312705]
I just need to figure out what would be the best length for me and what would be a good TPI count. And of course, how to take care of it and sharpen it. Probably a saw from Thomas Flinn, either Pax, Lynx or William Greaves. Does anyone of you know the difference between them,since the price for them is so different.
[/quote]In one of his older videos, Paul recommended a rip saw …can’t remember the tooth count, but I’m pretty confident he’d say not to stress over it…6, 7, 8 — not going to start WW3 if you go with one over the other, even if you use linseed oil on your bench 😉
IIRC, the lower the tooth count the more aggressive the cut, but the rougher the cut. So a 5 1/2 tpi rip saw, all other things being equal, will cut more quickly than an 8 tpi rip saw, but will make a rougher cut. I have a 26″ 8 tpi Disston and it cuts plenty fast for me, and the resulting cut cleans up quickly with a few plane strokes. Hopefully you can try different tpi’s and see which you prefer. I think much more important than tpi (as long as your tpi is reasonable, not 2 or 14, for example) is a straight saw plate with well-sharpened, properly jointed and set teeth.
I also prefer the lower handle for ripping — you’re much more in-line with the force you’re exerting, so there’s less leverage against you. OTOH, many prefer a higher grip as it helps them bear down on their cuts, and some feel it’s easier on the wrist when ripping at the proper angle. Here are two examples –
Here’s a Disston rip saw, but the grip is far from the teeth — the forces are interacting at the teeth line, so each inch above the teeth line is leverage against you. The grip is so high it almost looks like a crosscut saw:
Now here’s another Disston that is very similar to mine. Notice how your grip is only a couple of inches above the teeth?
Just something to think about, and perhaps you can try each style and see which you prefer.
I’m not familiar with Flinn, Lynx, Greaves, but Pax I know — pricey, nice saws. For starting out, could you get a cheap Disston off ebay? For 30-40 bucks you’ll have something that’ll outlast your lifetime, and if you ding it up you won’t be too upset. Perhaps in Europe that’s not so easily done, I can’t say, so what about a Spear and Jackson (sp?) — the one Paul uses. He blogged about it, said it was a decent starter saw, and resharpenable for a reasonable price.11 June 2017 at 5:52 pm #312712Since you are in Germany, get a traditional Framesaw(Spannsäge).
The one “downside” to a Framesaw is that you gotta get used saw with your hand at an angle , since depending on what you are sawing you wanna twist the Frame/Blade to the angle that gives you the clearance you need.
If you get an additional thin blade (Schweifsägeblatt), to the Absetzsägeblatt, for it you can also use it to cut curves very effective and fast.
The Massive advantage is that the blade is tensioned, means it cant bend or twist in the cut which makes sawing for a beginner easier, and in my experience, an experienced woodworker can cut much faster with a Framesaw then a Panelsaw.
The only thing you need to learn is to properly set the blade though that is relatively easy just hold the saw up to the light and twist the blade untill it lines up and you got the frame at the angle thats comfortable to you.The other Huge advantage is that you get a Brandnew saw with a resharpenable Blade for ~40€, means theres no risk involved whatsoever unlike with ebay and old saws in general (twisted/kinked/bent blades, broken handles or whatever else).
Especially for a Beginner getting an out of the box Useable Saw is really important, since you can focus on your technique and not on troubleshooting the saw or trying to figure out if your technique is off or its the saw that causes a problem.Overall if you buy one Framesaw you can get a whole range of Blades for different tasks, theres good reason why we never had the whole range of UK and US Saws we simply didnt need them.
Edit: Forgot to post a source https://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/gestell.html has them for example, service and delivery times are good and i never had any problems with orders from Dieter.
- This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Philipp J..
11 June 2017 at 6:48 pm #312715There is no second hand market for handtools here in Germany, at least not on Ebay.
I just watched Pauls Video, that saw might be a good idea. I will need to sleep on that 🙂Today I had a little disappointing experience. I took a pine board, 3cm thick, 12 cm wide, planed one surface, trued one side and ripped it down with the ryoba to get two pieces, which were supposed to be 1cm thick. I prepared the first board as best as I could, finished it, had lunch, prepared the second one, and when I rechecked the first one, it was cupped and twisted again. Just within a few hours.
Is that typical for thinner pieces? Is that a sign, that it maybe was not dry enough?11 June 2017 at 7:39 pm #312716that can indeed happen on thin stock, when ripping down internal stresses and different moisture levels can indeed twist it.
The wrong kind of Wood can also do that as in defects in the wood or the growth of the tree or just if the tree grew too fast.
That is a big problem with Conifers since they are often planted for cheap fast growing Construction Lumber thats not suitable for furniture making.Buying good quality Lumber saves you alot of trouble down the line.
On thin stock its a good idea overall to Rip it down a couple milimeters oversize then let the boards sit for a few hours or a day and plane it down to final thickness afterwards, or you can rip and plane it down to final thickness and straight up put it in its place, obviously you need to have the frame ready to go that way.
For ripping, I like a rip saw, full size, and like the work vertical in a vice if possible. This is because I like to use the rip saw with two hands once I’m fully in the cut. One hand holds the saw just as for a tenon saw and the palm of the other hand is on the top of the first hand, but at 90 degrees. Look at the two saw photos from Ed (@etmo). One has a plastic handle and the other has a wooden handle. Do you see the “decorative shaping” on the top of the wooden handle? When you take the saw as I described, you will find that the pinky and 4th finger of the second hand fall right into those “decorations” and give a comfortable, stable grip. Those dips aren’t decorations…they are functional. With a nice long blade and two hands, I can really get into a powerful, comfortable rhythm that seems to take so much less energy than using one hand. Somehow, I think I can do the work more with my hips and torso. Mine is the same size as Ed’s wooden handled saw, maybe a touch shorter.
Attachments:
You must be logged in to view attached files.Rip sawing to width or ripsawing to thickness? These are 2 difference beasts. I use a 8-11 tpi depending on thickness and how”finished” I need the board from the cut. The higher the TPI the smoother the cut, but the longer to make the cut.
For ripping to thickness I go as low 3.5 TPI on a 34″ handsaw. I can rip 9.5-10″ wide 40″ long boards to thickness in a reasonable about of time. This will cost you up 1/4″ of usable board or about the same as a table saw at that TPI. If you are thicknessing thinner stock you can drop down to around 9-10 tpi and stay at about 1/8″kerf
12 June 2017 at 10:20 am #312724Well, I would need the ripsaw for ripping to thickness, the japanese saw can handle the width-cuts.
I am a little bit torn between a panel saw and the framesaw Philipp mentioned. The framesaw could use different blades and is comparable cheap, but it is a bit bulky and probably takes a little bit to get used to it.
The other option would be to get that Spear & Jackson panel saw and remodel it for ripping.
Two panel saws + files for sharpening or that framesaw + extra sawblade + files would be about the same price ~ 60€, that would set me for cross- and ripcutting.From what I read, people used a frame saw even for dovetails, which I somehow can’t imagine. Dovetails seem kinda fragile and these saws are just big, but I guess it is just a matter of practice.
12 June 2017 at 11:31 am #312726Framesaws are a bit bulky indeed however they are not as heavy as you may think.
I have cut dovetails with them and it sure takes practice but it works fine once you get the hang of it.
Are there better saws for dovetails? Absolutely, i may get lynched for this, for a Beginner get a Dozuki in germany Dictum carries good ones.
Reason i say this is the added versatility (lenght, depth of cut) over a Western Dovetailsaw + at the price theres no beating them at 30 to 50 € you get an excellent saw out of the box.If you are talking about the style of framesaw that people use for dovetails, I find that saw useful for this and that, but not useful for long rips that require me to cant the frame off to the side. So, any rip longer than a few inches. I would much rather use a light, balanced, rip saw than have to support the frame leaning to the side, which wants to wobble or bounce. Yes, you can stabilize it, but the rip saw doesn’t do this at all. There is another style of “framesaw” with the blade at the center of the frame and at 90 degrees to the frame which has unlimited depth of cut, but it’s not something that is used for joinery. I do not own one, but do own the other kind of framesaw. In the end, I find I use the rip saw (like @etmo’s photo) for ripping and my tenon saw for joinery. I do the bulk of my work with those two saws. I would like to add a decent crosscut saw for initial reducing cuts at some point.
Oh, the point someone made about ripping to width vs. rewsawing thickness is an excellent point! I’ve done very little resawing to thickness by hand. Full disclosure: I just bought a bandsaw, so I’m now corrupt and untrustworthy. : – )
- This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Ed.
[quote quote=312724]Well, I would need the ripsaw for ripping to thickness, the japanese saw can handle the width-cuts.
I am a little bit torn between a panel saw and the framesaw Philipp mentioned. The framesaw could use different blades and is comparable cheap, but it is a bit bulky and probably takes a little bit to get used to it.
The other option would be to get that Spear & Jackson panel saw and remodel it for ripping.
Two panel saws + files for sharpening or that framesaw + extra sawblade + files would be about the same price ~ 60€, that would set me for cross- and ripcutting.[/quote]
Panel saws are a specific flavor of handsaw — shorter plate and higher tpi, maybe a 20 inch plate and 10 tpi as an example. The rip saws pictured are perhaps 24-26 inch plates and 5-8 tpi. I don’t know if, as an absolute beginner looking to start with the essential saws, a panel saw makes sense. Personally I think the best beginner combo is a good Western rip saw, such as those mentioned above, and a carcass saw like this one: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/carcass-saws/carcass-saws-carcass-saw-?node=4146. The rip saw will crosscut adequately, so you can do the rough dimensioning of all your stock, and the carcass saw will do any precision joinery task you ask of it — dado cuts, sliding dovetails, regular dovetails, tenons, etc, etc. As you progress in your woodworking, then you can perhaps expand your saw collection as your budget permits.
I started with a 10″ ryoba. Still have it, and I do like it, although it has lost a good bit of sharpness and I can’t re-sharpen it. One side cross cuts and the other rips. The resulting cuts are smoother than the Western counterparts, and sawyers of skill can produce straight cuts in almost any situation. However, as a beginner I’m lacking in skill, and I observed an immediate improvement in my sawing when I went to a backed saw (this could be a dozuki, not saying it has to be Western) for joinery and a longer rip saw for dimensioning, in my case a 24″ Disston.
The biggest improvements were in resawing boards of non-trivial widths and in efficiency when holding a straight-line rip in a long cut (say ripping a 48″ long board in half, width-wise). It’s probably my terrible technique, but the ryoba, in my hands, does not have nearly the resawing capabilities of the Disston — not even in the same ballpark, as we say in the US. If you’re resawing a board that is wider than the 10″ ryoba blade length, you have to start a new cut on the opposing side, and hope they meet perfectly in the middle. That method is not going to achieve consistently great results from a beginner, whereas the 24-26″ plate can almost always reach across to the same kerf you started, so you have no worries of “finding” the other kerf — you’re already in it.
Both will rip to width quite well, but the 24″ blade simply eats more wood per stroke, and the longer plate makes it easier to stay straight while keeping the productivity high, yet undemanding.A small tip: starting a big saw, such as a 26″ 6 tpi rip saw, is not the easiest thing to do in hard woods. And as goes the start, so goes the rest, so if you mess up the start, it can be difficult to correct, so this was part of my reason for starting with a Japanese saw — easier to start the cut compared to the big rip saw. However, I saw a video by Shannon Rogers on Youtube (the Renaissance Woodworker channel) which showed an excellent method — don’t start cuts with big
saws! Simply start the cut with your carcass (or other joinery) saw. It’s a backed saw, and will saw the straightest lines you can imagine. It’s easy to start — designed to be that way. Then, when it has cut the deepest it can, simply switch to your big rip saw. The kerf will be too narrow, but a few easy strokes will open up the kerf, and you’ll be following the straight, plumb line you began in just a few seconds. The “Path of least resistance” means your big rip saw wants to follow the straight line started by your joinery saw, and having started a perfect cut, it’s much, much easier to simply maintain that perfectly straight, plumb cut the rest of the way. Very useful tip for beginners like me with iffy sawing technique.I also use the @ed method of two-handed ripping, with the work vertical in a vise. Gravity will always tell you which way is straight down, so I align my cut line with gravity for that extra help, and the double-fisted technique is very efficient…you can get very powerful strokes with such minor effort that you can rip all day. The entire setup is reminiscent of the “overhand rip” method taught in many videos, but IMHO the body mechanics of this position relative to the work are more efficient. Perhaps it’s to do with one’s individual makeup — as with everything — try all the options and pick whichever works best for you.
12 June 2017 at 4:47 pm #312840This has been a very enjoyable and interessting conversation so far.
[quote quote=312831] as with everything — try all the options and pick whichever works best for you.
[/quote]That is very true and what it comes down to. For me Personally i have no Issue with the Frame at an angle it just works for me and the versatility being able to switch blades and do just about all joinery + cut curves is just great in my book.
I was or in some cases still are in the same Shoes, i have done quiet alot of research and considered the western saws like Carcass or Dovetail Saw.
Ultimately i decided against it for a few reasons the biggest one was Price, I know quality has its price and like to buy a good tool once but i just cant afford to spend 140+ $ on a Saw.Before you start with the Second Hand market, those Saws dont exist over here in Central Europe in Austria and Southern Germany at least everything was done with Frame Saws, Gents Saws and Handsaws.
We just dont have Carcass, Tennon or Dovetail Saws around here and Handsaws are also alot rarer then Framesaws. Unless you have someone from the US or UK that can take a look and pick you out a good straight Saw you’re buying the Unknown.On the Ryoba the thing is its not designed to work in a Western Fashion with the Board in a Vise, in Toshio Odates fantastic book he mentions and shows the Japanese using very low Sawhorses (maybe like 30cm/1 foot high, if that) and essentially standing ontop of the Board and working that way, i think that explains the short blades and long handles.
As stated earlier its just about what works for you and what suits your needs best.
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