Very basic question about sawing to marked line
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- This topic has 19 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 4 months ago by Larry Geib.
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This is probably a bit of a silly question, but I’ve never been able to quite get it from videos…
After marking a line to saw down (e.g. for cutting a joint), you cut on the waste side – but I’m confused as to whether the line itself counts as waste or not:
Is the intention that as you saw, the pencil line disappears completely (i.e. the line counts as waste)? In that case would you start with the saw teeth on the pencil line to make sure this happens?
Or do you want the line to still be visible to help guide you, and the aim is to saw as close to is as possible without removing it (i.e. the line doesn’t count as waste)? If this is the case, I guess you’d try and start the cut with the saw teeth slightly to the side of the line?
The line should remain as you cut,if you measured accurately. if you cut it away you have lost your reference (stopping) point. Knife walls make it clearer and more definitive than a pencil line. the 12 minute mark in the dovetail box episode shows cutting and then shooting board to dial it in.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by BrianJ.
If you are talking about a pencile line I suppose it matters how you got the pencile line. If you marked it from a tap measure and shooting for a particuler dimention then you would try to cut half of the line away on the waste side. If you are cutting lines that have been marked from dove tails to cut the pins then you would leave the entire line becasue you have marked outside of the dovetails and the line would be on top of the pin. If you are cutting to a knife wall I would think you would leave the knife wall for a ref to pare back to like when cutting a housing joint or the end of a board. I hope that helps..
Thanks, that makes sense. I haven’t watched the dovetail box series yet, but will do so shortly to look for tips.
I guess I was mostly confused as when I watched Paul’s (or other videos), I never saw anyone rubbing out or clearing up pencil lines after a cut. But I guess maybe they’re just removed with later cleanup (with plane or chisel).
Hi Dave
I had the same exact problem. Think of your line as your reference point by which you judge if you are maintaining a straight saw line.
Pauls video on ripping small stock was very helpful to me, he suggests cutting 1mm or so on the waste side of your pencil line.
Also, practice makes a lot of difference!
24 October 2016 at 10:13 pm #141875A pencil line can only be a rough orientation. Usually, it is even a hair away from your ruler, and, as you noticed, it has a considerable width. But this also means, that the good wood only starts beyond the line, so you can safely remove it completely.
If you want accuracy, use a knife line. It is not only a measure to prevent the fibres from tearing out, it also separates the good wood from the waste at the surface.
But, apart from that, a saw cut isn’t as accurate as it might seem. It is better to make a rough cut and then refine with a plane, chisel or other appropriate tool. I think, this is one reason, why you cut the mortise hole first (chisel) and then refine the tenon to fit after having rough-sawn it. This said, stay as close to your lines as you think you can handle. If you are not sure, stay away a bit further. A cut, once done, can’t be undone.
Dieter
27 October 2016 at 1:37 am #141945I understand cutting to the line but I have heard Paul say on numerous occasions that you should adjust your cut during or before you first 10 strokes. What is the correct way or is there a “correct way to adjust your cut as you go. I have been making a charity auction piece that is made from rough cut western red cedar and it is very cantankerous about ripping a straight line down the face because of the onery grain coming and going, even with a really good saw the line wanders and I have to plane every piece to correct for width. Any ideas? It would be great if you could add this as a Q for the Q&A and show how you do this.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by oltexasboy.
27 October 2016 at 7:31 pm #141954Ripping from my experience is of course highly dependent on the first couple of strokes.
Also angling the saw downward, where the handle is well below the point of cut. This angling reduces break out where you are not sawing parallel to the grain but are still technically ripping.
As with all sawing, you never want to strain the saw or press it down too hard. It will start wiggling and going off track. be light but confident where you want to make the cut. Be aware of where your elbow is, where your feet are. Feel for the feedback that the grain is giving you, with soft brittle wood, like cedar, be very light. Also, sawing from both sides of the board helps.
In regards to the original question, trying to saw a gauge line. You want to generally stay on the waste side of your line. In regards to if the line is waste or not, it depends on if that works for you.
I like knife walls and gauges because they give you a clear visual for when to stop. I use pencils for rough cuts or dovetails and pins in pine, very sharp pencils.
27 October 2016 at 8:13 pm #141955Oltexasboy, this would certainly make a good subject for a Q and A! But until then, we can make experiments. Obviously, we cannot change the current position of the blade inside the wood, we can only execute pressure by rotating or tilting the handle and observe, how that translates into the next strokes.
I have successfully made fairly straight cuts with a pull-saw. I had the hand way below the cutting point and moved it left or right to direct the cut. The opposite side was less precise, but the result was still much better than letting the saw go wherever it wants. It should work the same with push-saws, but I haven’t tried, because the pull-saw works so well on this. I have the impression, that tilting the handle gives quite unpredictable results on the other side of the board. Frame saws are interesting too, because you can pull the entire frame to one side…
Apart from that, sawing is not as accurate as one might want it to be, so better allow for some margin and use a plane for the precision work. For a general rule: Make the margin slightly larger than the deviation you expect (and hopefully, we can tell better each time we saw).
Dieter
29 August 2017 at 4:23 pm #314735I’m glad someone else asked this as well as me. I see all these videos of the perfect finished dovetails but each time different words are used to describe the method. Paul uses different terms such as right up against, right on and probably some others. There is a Lee valley article that says “right on your line”.
I’m finding the search ability of this particular site difficult to narrow down previous questions so I’m glad this was close to the top.
Has Paul ever written a blog post about this? He’s a stickler for precision and accuracy.
I think the posts above explain pretty well.
If I understand it right I Consider my saws kerf and rhe method I’m marking my pins with. If a knife, that line is pretty much a facsimile of the tight line between the two pieces so as long as my kerf remains on the waste side it will be accurate (perhaps with a little paring to get to the line). If I use pencil (and let’s say the lead point is 1mm thick) that entire mark is on the waste side. If my kery is 1mm wide I can saw right on the line, removing it as I saw.
Thanks all,
Rowly30 August 2017 at 12:55 am #314751THIS from Roy Underhill at 14 mins or so was quite useful to see. It was interesting to see the technique he uses too.
10 October 2017 at 11:03 pm #332032I’m still new to this as well, but none of the experienced carpenters i’ve worked with have ever said to remove the pencil line, they’ve always said to cut on the waste side of the line.
I think a lot of us new woodworkers have trouble with this. I tried a bunch of experiments and it finally made sense to the point where I can cut mediocre dovetails reliably — yes mediocre is very good since I started with absolutely wretched dovetails! First, I use a mechanical pencil so that the width is constant. First, Paul often uses a pencil when he cuts a dovetail in pine, so that is what I do. I then cut to the waste side of the pencil mark just a hair to the side of the pencil mark. I do not cut right up to the pencil mark. The duller your pencil, or the thicker the lead, the thicker that hair should be. The sharper your pencil, or the final the lead, the closer the line is to the point you want to cut and the smaller the hair. This makes sense since a pencil, unless the led is very fine, cannot get right into the edge of your ruler or to the edge of your tail when you are marking out pins from those tails. A light bulb went off for me when I realized I could actually see the slight gap between a straight edge, which was exactly where I wanted my cut, and the pencil mark I drew with that straightedge. Second, when you are using a knife to mark the line, you can snug the cut pretty much right up against the ruler or to the tail you are using the mark a pin. In fact, when you use a knife to mark the pin from the tail, you can actually get the knife just a hair under the tail with the blade. So you should still cut to the waste side of the knife line, but the edge of your saw can just touch the line. Treat it like a knife wall when you cross cut. Do not split it at all. Of course, there are always qualifications. If the line you cut with your knife is not snug up to the ruler or to the tail you use to mark a pin, you need to cut a hair off of it.
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