28 October 2015 at 8:06 am #131826Hella van der VeldeParticipant
Dear people, I would like to make windows and door frames, from scratch. From scratch I mean starting with beams form the store, not going to the woods and chop some tree. The standard profiled window/door posts, have a groove in which de glass/pane/door will be place against.
My question is, how to make this groove? I think in the same way as you make a tennon, only it will be half a tennon over the whole length of the post? The smallest surfaces of the grooves need to be square with each other.
Or is there a other method?
Are there any woodworkers here, that have experience with window/door woodworking?
29 October 2015 at 10:12 pm #131875
Apologies Hella, and ‘Whoops’, as Mr. Sellers put it.
The bridle joint is good for the frame surrounding the glass panes. For the window frame (the outermost one), I think that tenons and mortises are the better alternative. I’ve restored a number of frames, and the ones using this joint have been in much better condition than those joined by nails. The tenons have always been offset, presumably to avoid small glued pieces.
This far my windows have opened outwards
London, UK; Cambridge, MA30 October 2015 at 12:02 am #131880Hella van der VeldeParticipant
Sven-Olaf , apologies accepted. For what I don’t know, hahaha.
Bridle joint is thus, a open Mortice & Tenon and with rebates it will be offset.
A open Mortice & Tenon has more cuts , so therefor more chance of catching water. I understand that it will be easier to make a open Mortice & Tenon, especially on smaller stock.
Here in the Netherlands the general idea is, for the outermost frame, the one that will be fixed in de wall, has an top and bottom and in between the styles and middle styles, these will be under and above the top and bottom styles.
So the best thing would be to do Mortises & tenons was it not for the extra work.
The window pane frame, will have the styles next to the top and bottom.
If windows open outward, it’s easier take out the window, burglars.
But they can also just break the glass, so that’s a lame excuse.
If windows open outward, the rebates of the fixed frame will be towards the inside, which is, I thinks also better. Ok so I’ll make them outwards.
I can’t wait to start….have some old chisels here but very rusty, so I can start to practise a little. Also take down the wood from the attic.
I als am using the cheapest wood, no hard wood.
What kind of glue do you use for outside?
Thanks Sven for you feedback!!!!30 October 2015 at 12:11 am #131881Frank JosephMember
You can’t use a #4 to make rabits. you need a plane that the blade extents to the edge or just past the planes frame. Do your self a big favor do not buy cheap tool all you will do is frustrate your self and then you will need to buy new tools. You do not need to buy expensive tools a reconditioned 60 dollar #4 by Stanley will do all you need but a new 30 dollar Stanley handyman will not do much of anything but make you mad.
If you don’t know what to buy, post a note here and ask for help. Someone here will be able to advise you where and at what price range is available in your part of the world.. poor tools can ruin a project and your enjoyment of the project.
In South Jersey the good part of New Jersey, USA.30 October 2015 at 12:48 am #131883
To simplify things you could always create the rebate by gluing two length of wood together, one narrower than the other. Use a good waterproof glue (D3 or D4 on the bottle), clamp it well and it’ll probably perform just as well. Just a thought.
Also I’d reconsider using construction-grade softwood, from a stability and durability standpoint (I.e. twisting and rotting) it’s not ideal.
Southampton, UK30 October 2015 at 12:52 am #131885
Oh, and I think windows almost always open outwards, only reason I can think of is it saves sweeping everything off the windowsill.
Southampton, UK30 October 2015 at 9:15 am #131901Hella van der VeldeParticipant
Frank, thank you very much, good tip, #4 plane is not the same as a rebate plane, I didn’t think of that. I ordered a #4 plane and I hope it’s good enough, otherwise I’ll look for another one. There are some good woodworking websites here. So now I just need a rebate plane, either make one or buy a cheap old one.
Matt, that’s a idea, which I could do if rebating is too difficult. My plan is to do more wood working construction than only the windows so I just want to learn all different steps.
Also with glueing a rod on your stock, there will be a large seam/glue line, so more change of water damage.
Ok construction-grade softwood, I will inform extra about this when I buy some. For now there is stock on the attic, so I’ll have to sort out the best ones, but I think it’s maybe better to just buy new stock, not so expensive. Stock on the attic is more for wall construction etc, long stock and crooked.
Outward windows yes ok, and it’s in a wood working place, otherwise windows lean over the working bench when openend.
Thanks Frank and Matt
Greetings Hella, Follega, Friesland, The Netherlands.30 October 2015 at 4:51 pm #131905
The first rebates I made were a total mess, and the deeper and wider they are the more trouble they become. All credit to you for aiming along the route that builds skills and knowledge, but particularly for the large rebate in the frame, gluing up the rebate is a useful method to have in your back pocket. Using a waterproof glue and assuming the whole lot will be painted, I would not worry at all about the glue joint failing.
If it wasn’t clear, I was warning against using construction-grade softwood, which would bring a greater risk of ending up with a twisted window and a world of pain.
Southampton, UK10 January 2016 at 8:09 pm #133771
What I’m about to say is from my own experience and my only reference is years of experience on the job… That said, I’m not assuming it’s the best way because how could I possibly ever know that!
Bridle joints for windows and door frames do not last the test of time! A good method that will last for many many years is a haunched mortise and tenon joint. I get almost all of my business these days replacing ten to twenty year old storm proof softwood windows where the bridle joint has failed and the bottom of the windows has quite literally fallen out. A mortise tenon will last for many many many more years even with severe neglect.
For door frames the joint that shows signs of a true craftsman is one that I have put in a thrown together pic, just screwed and glued after that and lasts for many years without gaps appearing in the head. The other picture is of the a window “draft design” that I was paid to build by someone who insisted on that design. They paid me again 11 years later to make brand new windows because some of the joints had started to fail.
Food for thought, or maybe I’m just losing my grip on reality lol
Swindon, England10 January 2016 at 8:12 pm #133774
It’s an excellent idea to make a full scale drawing and mark your parts from it for accuracy.
The mortise is laid out in pencil and you can see that there is a good portion of timber left stopping the joint from ever slipping apart. Even if the frame is against masonry all around it can still shrink and leave gaps and fail. Once moisture enters a joint it’s almost game over.
Swindon, England10 January 2016 at 8:15 pm #133777
Sorry for multiple posting but apparently my images are too large for one single post…
A good quality frame will normally have a hardwood cill because that’s almost always the first thing to rot away.
It’s also good practice to mitre corners Because it’s helps in keeping the frame square long term and reduces the temptation to create masons miters on profiled stock. Although that normally involves making the groove / rebate / rabbet once the frame is already assembled.
Well, I hope this helps
Swindon, England10 January 2016 at 9:27 pm #133782
At timees I fall into the trap of “Swenglish” (the assumption that an entity is in English called somehing similar to what it is in Swedish). Thereof calling the frame of sashes and muntins a window frame (fönsterram in Swedish). That part, appears to always be made with bridle joints in Scandinavia, while the window frame surrounding it is joined with tenons and mortices. Pine is always used, though heartwood from trees grown in the north is becoming difficult to find, as much of it is exported
Thanks for correcting me
London, UK; Cambridge, MA10 January 2016 at 9:31 pm #133783
It wasn’t my intention to correct anyone… I used to work as a timmerman in jönköping and way up in norrland building laboratories etc. Although I haven’t spoken swedish in years…
all the stormproof windows we made indeed had bridle joints and then passed through a molding machine to create the rebate for the frame. Although the timber we used was all heat treated and regularized and tantalized. It’s been my experience that the rest of the world could learn a lot about scandinavian joinery… Very long lasting and very little maintenance.
A very beautiful country!
10 January 2016 at 10:35 pm #133785
- This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by MaxWheeler.
Många tack, Max!
Didn’t think you were correcting anyone, just that I need to check my terminology
I have an old croft (soldattorp) in Halland, with some windows needing to be replaced because they are in a poor conditions and others requiring sashes and muntins that are more typical for this kind of buildings. As, hopefully, the attached photo shows, mounting the frames promise to be a challenge.
London, UK; Cambridge, MA11 January 2016 at 11:04 am #133797
Aw man! Makes me want to move back to Sweden!
Amazingly if I sold my house here I could buy two or three houses in Sweden don’t ask me why UK property is worth so much but apparently it is… Unfortunately my wife is, as she puts it “allergic to the cold” haha
I suppose I just miss that huge barn workshop and the super tall ceilings…………
Swindon, England11 January 2016 at 1:21 pm #133801
Well, floor to ceiling is 6 ft 4″ (192 cm) in this croft, and the joists of the attic floor protrude from the ceiling, intermittently reducing the height further. The workshop is nice though.
London, UK; Cambridge, MA
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