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  • #142179
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    I win!

    Today, I received the linseed meal and sealed the bottom. When I filled the tankard, there were a few drops of water from two spots and that is all that got out. There are still a few challenges to master, but without this success, it wouldn’t be worth bothering.

    I still think, it is worth making a croze, because the linseed meal oozed out at the corners between the staves. A croze will allow me to make a round groove which matches the outside of the bottom. Of course, I could make a cornered bottom instead, but I don’t like the idea. Furthermore, the corners of the staves will be a bit stronger with a round groove, because the groove will be less deep there. But I won’t change this on my prototype. I have three other challenges to master, the rings, the tapering, and the handle. That is much more important for now.

    By the way, I have rounded the outside of the tankard except for the bottom part, it looks very nice. Perhaps I will upload a photo later tonight or tomorrow.

    Dieter

    One hour later, no traces of water around the tankard, it looks like the water is still at the same level as before. I only have a metal ring on the bottom and in the middle, so I can see, how the staves have swollen, there are small gaps at the very top now, where the wood is dry. I will leave it to dry now, because tomorrow, I want to plane the taper.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    #142203
    C White
    Participant

    how are you going to finish the timber? mineral oil?

    #142205
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    Hi C White! I am not sure yet, what to use. It must be food grade and it must harden hard, not slimey-gooey. And, preferably, it should not contain nuts, because of the allergic reactions that some people have. Alternatively, I will simply leave it raw.

    And the answer to the other obvious question: I will finish the iron hoops, possibly with clear hard laquer. Why? I don’t want them to rust.

    Ok, here is my hoop-workshop:
    (you should right-click and select “open in new window” on the first attachment now, then arrange the browser windows to see both, the text and the foto)

    the tools

    The heavy hammer is used as an anvil in the vise. I only used it once, then turned to a metal vise, which is slightly heavier and less mobile than the hammer in the vise.
    The odd mushroomed metal piece is used to shape the rod of the rivet
    I use the center punch to make a hole through the hoop iron, then the awl to make it wider. It is just a simple awl with squared tip (see Paul Seller on that, he explains, why it needs a square tip rather than a rounded one).
    Then I use the file to remove the burr around the hole.
    Finally, a rivet is inserted (from inside out, because otherwise I can’t hit it), it gets a nice punch with the shaper, then is punched flat.
    I flatten the rivet heads on the inside to make them a bit smoother and flatter. I might need a smaller file for that.
    The small hoop is my first try. A bit too small to fit on the tankard yet, because I haven’t started tapering it.

    rivets and head maker
    (now pull the second attachment onto the first foto which is still open, it will appear there instead)
    Some views of the finished rivets and the “inside” of the puncher.

    For the puncher, I cut off the top part of a stone chisel and drilled a small hole into the end. This hole could be rounder on the inside, but I have no idea, how to do that. It does its job anyway, it creates a burr on the open end of the rivet. Frankly speaking, I am not sure, if I am doing it right. I only made a small burr, which was large enough to keep the rivet in place, then hammered heavily until I got something flat. On the upper right foto you can see the second attempt on the left side, the right side is the original rivet head filed down a bit. On the lower left, you can see the rivets in the same order, both filed down a lot.

    By the way, the iron is not black as it appears on the fotos, it is grey.

    I am also looking for a real anvil, around 10 kgs. But I have to get some information. Affordable anvils are made from cast iron and is not so good for hammering iron. These anvils are rather used for copper, tin, silver and gold. On the other hand, it doesn’t really matter if it takes 1 minute or 10 minutes to do the riveting. compared to the rest of the work, it is no time at all (so far, I might improve).

    Dieter

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti. Reason: various changes
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    #142225
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    I found a few crozes on ebay, too expensive, but some good pictures. Once again, it is one of these very simple but effective tools. Crozes come with one, two and three, even four blades, and so my concept seems to be right: Two blades for the edges, one to cut the groove. So my final idea is this:

    A package of four or five pieces of sheet metal (from a saw blade), all the same width, spanning the range of the three blades. The blade parts will be cut out where they have to be, so, for example, the first edge cutter on the left, then another edge cutter in the middle and the roamer on the right. The roamer might be thicker or simply several sheets, to get the required width of the groove. Apparently, the package will have the edge cutter sheets on the outside and the roamer sheets in the middle. The package can then be screwed to the bottom of the wooden body of the tool.

    It might take a while before I make this tool, because I don’t need it for the prototype.

    Dieter

    #142333
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    Again no pictures yet, but I am in the middle of hooping, and it might be nicer to show the final result. One hoop sits nicely in the middle of the mug. The second one, near the upper rim, needs a slight bevel and it will be difficult to hammer that in, now that it is closed. I will try, but make a new one anyway. The initial lower one has become the middle one, it was slightly soo small. This is the hard part: the width of the hoop needs to be guessed correctly. I have another two hoops now, which I can keep as try hoops for future tankards. By the way, I originally wanted to use two rivets per hoop, but I think, that one will be enough. Less work and it is easier to alight both sides of the hoop with only one hole.

    I did some rivetology today.

    Part one: One rivet went awfully wrong, it widened between the two layers of the hoop. I wanted to remove it by filing down the head, but it didn’t come off, even when the head was flush with the hoop. So that hoop was lost and I tossed it. While starting this post, I got it back and cut right through the rivet. It turns out, that the iron of the hoop was compressed, so the head of the rivet protroded a bit into the material. This is interesting, because I want the rivets as flat as possible on the inside of the hoops. The ones I got so far dig into the wood and leave marks. I want a second opinion, but I think, it is safe to file down the rivet heads until they are almost flush.

    Part two: My “mushoom iron” (for lack of the proper word) might need a deeper hole to keep the two hoop parts together while mushrooming the rivet. There is enough space for a second hole, I only need to find a sharp drill bit. This new hole must be closer to the diameter of the rivet shaft, I think.

    I also changed my method a bit. For taking the measurement, I use a piece of string, then add about 1″ for the rivet overlap and cut this from the ring I got. Then I hammer some roundness into the new hoop and fit it directly on the tankard and mark the meeting point of the sides about 1/8″ narrower than the actual width. This might be a bit much, trial and error, as I mentioned before. Then I somehow manage to hold the hoop overlapping as it should and give it a good whack with the center punch. This marks the hole positions on both ends. With a nail, I make the final holes and then widen them with the awl. In theory, it should be possible to make at least one hole with the original rivet, but I lost three rivets trying, they must be somewhere in my workshop still… Nail is fine, perhaps I can find one with the right diameter, so I can skip the awling. While hammering down the rivet end, I have to keep both ends of the hoop together, which is difficult and includes the danger of hammering onto my fingers. Hence the idea of making a larger hole into the “mushroom iron”.

    Lots of text again, I wonder, if someone actually bothers to read all of this 😉

    Dieter

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti. Reason: added a word
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    #142364
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    I fitted the second hoop and decided that two hoops are enough. It seems, that the tightness has improved, even though we have temperatures around the freezing point here and the inside air is very dry. I suppose, the inside of the joints preserves a bit of humidity. But the lower hoop is much tighter than the screwable hoop that was on before, and that might be the real reason…

    Now I am thinking about a nice handle shape and methods to attach the handle. I considered mortising the lower end and have the upper end reach over the lid into the mug. With a radius on the length of the mortise, it would be possible, but that’s too complicated. Instead, I might use dowels on both ends. I will dry the dowels in the oven first, then shape them to a tight fit. The holes will both point to the center of the mug, so there is some pinching action between the dowels. I think, this could make a secure fixture even without glue.

    If someone knows a food-safe, taste- and odourless oil that cures hard, please let me know. At this stage, I consider not finishing the wood at all and let it take its natural course.

    On the image, you can see the traces left by the inside heads of the rivets. They will be covered by the handle. Unfortunately, this means, that the outside heads will be invisible too.

    Dieter

    PS: I like the tankard as it is. I might make a few with and a few without handle. the ones without the handle will get a special surface treatment to match the traces of the rivets.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
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    #142476
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    Just to push myself a bit, here is what I want to do this weekend (and what I already did)

    I cut a handle on my new bandsaw and I think, I won’t do that again, except if I need to work on the bandsaw anyway. It works well, but not really faster than with a coping (or jig in my case) saw, and accuracy isn’t important here. Then I tried to make a recess on the top of the handle, to hold a strip of 10x4mm metal. It is a rebate now, but that doesn’t matter. The strip is bent 90° at the inside end of the handle, and will be hooked onto the rim of the tankard. On the lower end of the handle, I will drill a hole and glue in a dowel, that goes into the wall of the tankard. Later handles will get a tenon instead, I didn’t have this idea when I cut the handle. With a tenon pointing upwards slightly and the metal strip hooked to the rim, the handle should be attached firmly. I hope, it will work… Oh, the strip of metal will be screwed to the handle. I should make pictures.

    Dieter

    #142555
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    I haven’t put a dowel yet, because i was busy with other things. However, the attached foto shows, how the prototype will look like. The screws on the handle will be countersunk and shortened, but I don’t have a suitable tool at home.

    This project takes much longer than I had thought, but there are so many tiny little challenges. But I am confident, that the “serial production” will be much more efficient, no more trial and error. So I am still on schedule for Christmas.

    Dieter

    Attachments:
    #142654
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    No new picture, but I have finished the tankard now. It looks exactly as on the last image, except that I added two dowels. The dowels go through the lower part of the handle and into – not through – the staff there. I haven’t glued I yet, but need to, because the dowels alone keep the handle in place but it moves.

    The prototype is for display only, because it dried out so much, that it doesn’t get tight anymore (perhaps if I soak it in water). It does not matter. I worked out the methods that I need (except for making a croze) and now I can start to make Christmas presents.

    By the way, it is best to make the final rings only, when the wooden outside is finished completely. The rings I made for this prototype are slightly too wide because I reshaped the tankard a little.

    I have some pieces of oak which will be turned into tankards soon. I think, I will stay with pine or similar for the handle, easier to work on. Also, I don’t have suitable pieces of oak.

    Dieter

    #142732
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    The very last picture of my prototype. Since the oil is applied to the outside, the tankard is watertight, and – as you can see – foam tight. It is even beer-tight, there is not only foam inside. It was a special moment to drink this beer, because I happened to see it in a supermarket today, and it was the last beer I have drunk with an old friend years ago. Probably a good ending to this topic. Perhaps I will add a few more posts about the “serial production” later. There is still a lot of room for improvement that I want to share, once achieved (the improvements, not the room).

    Cheers!

    Dieter

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by Hugo Notti.
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    #142744
    Hugo Notti
    Participant

    PS to my last post

    The tankard is leaking, when it has dried completely. At the moment, I keep it filled with water, so I can try various drinks. The beer was nice, no traces of linseed taste or smell getting in the way. I also tried goat’s milk and water. There is one big difference to most other drinking vessels: It doesn’t immediately take the temperature of the drink and it feels much lighter than for example a beer mug made of glass. And its rugged appearance seems to enhance the quality of the drink.

    By the way, I didn’t glue the handle, it doesn’t seem necessary.

    And a final statement

    I learned a lot making this tankard. It is definitely a prototype with quite a few defects, but I know, that I will do much better on the next ones. And I know, that I can make the wooden bucket, which was the initial idea.

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