Hello from a beginner! Some tool advice please…
Welcome! / Forums / General Woodworking Discussions / Tools and Tool Maintenance/Restoration / Hello from a beginner! Some tool advice please…
- This topic has 20 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by Mangokid.
-
AuthorPosts
-
Hello! First time poster from Belfast, UK.
I have been interested in woodworking for a while and at first, knowing no better, I spent my time on youtube etc researching the machine approach to woodworking, only to become frustrated and confused at the sheer complication of which machines to buy, the space needed, expense, dust extraction etc.
I had all but given up at pursuing the hobby until I discovered Paul’s videos and his approach to woodworking – what a revelation that was.
With my enthusiasm renewed, I am gathering the information on what tools to start with for hand tool woodworking and hopefully you people will offer some advice. I will try to keep it short!
I am happy with the sharpening method and measuring tools I need, chisels as well. But could do with some advice on planes and saws…
Firstly, i will say that I would like to buy quality, new tools. My experience with other hobbies has always been that buying the best is never a bad thing, even if the quality of the “best” is not always obvious to the beginner, it becomes obvious as you progress. Worst case scenario, quality can always be sold on at not much of a loss I feel. Whilst no more flush with money than the next man, I feel that I would rather have 2-3 guaranteed quality tools than half a dozen mediocre tools, though many an argument can be made for the second hand market, it doesn’t appeal at this stage.
So with that in mind I am considering buying a No4 smoothing plane ( and a block plane) as my first planes, possibly a Lie Nielsen or a veritas? But which? I know that some of the chinese made planes get very good reviews but, for some reason, that market just doesn’t appeal. I would love to buy british, but unsure about clifton as reviews are mixed…
I should add that I have acquired a few decent wooden planes (17″ and 22″) that where my grandfathers and so my thinking, in getting a No4 and not a jack plane, is that I can use that to then flatten these wooden planes and get them up to scratch for use?
Finally saws. My head says Japanese saws, as I can get a set of three, quality saws covering all the bases for a very reasonable price. Simple and not confusing. Buying new blades when needed.
My heart though, says western saws, but honestly, I’m confused about the range of saws available and what is required and which makes to go for? Sharpening really doesn’t appeal at this stage either, as I would rather spend my initial time learning the basics of woodworking and focusing on some projects.
You might ask, what I want to make? I don’t know yet, start small and learn the basics, but ultimately, I would like to progress enough to make furniture for my home.
19 April 2017 at 12:02 am #311181You have to get what you feel is best for you , a lot of people feel that saving an old tool and continuing its life with a new user is the right way to go
that gets them immersed in the history of the tool and an intimate knowledge of how it was made and works,
New tools are nice but within a short while they will need to be sharpened and tuned just like old tools , so its 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other ,
with new saws especially western ones expect to pay a god price for a good saw .your two companys you are looking at for planes also have the other tools as well you then just need to see which fits you best ,most tools are a personal fit with the user , so if at all possible hold before you buy.
being from the uk the car boot sales would be a good place to equip yourself without spending as much as one western saw. just a thought ,- This reply was modified 7 years ago by deanbecker.
19 April 2017 at 12:29 am #311183Sounds like you have a good handle on it. If it were me, I’d buy a LN #4, and those Japanese saws, and get started. You’ll figure out what works for you with the saws as you get more experience and decide if you want to stick with Japanese saws or go with Western saws.
Good luck!
I personally vote for the Japanese saws. I really like them. It takes a bit of getting used too as you have to have a different technique than a western saw but I think they are great after some practice.
I actually plan on getting some of the better made ones that don’t have the replaceable blades soon. I’m going to get the diamond type files to sharpen them. Should be fun.
[quote quote=311181]You have to get what you feel is best for you , a lot of people feel that saving an old tool and continuing its life with a new user is the right way to go
that gets them immersed in the history of the tool and an intimate knowledge of how it was made and works,
New tools are nice but within a short while they will need to be sharpened and tuned just like old tools , so its 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other[/quote]
Yeah, I’m still on the fence a little with this. I like the idea, but just not confident I could select a good older tool and get it up to scratch. Flattening a sole etc with a metal plane and everything else that may be required, is a little off putting just now. I feel that I want to get off to a good start and buying new would get me going pretty much straight away. Thanks.
[quote quote=311183]Sounds like you have a good handle on it. If it were me, I’d buy a LN #4, and those Japanese saws, and get started. You’ll figure out what works for you with the saws as you get more experience and decide if you want to stick with Japanese saws or go with Western saws.
Good luck!
[/quote]
So you think a No.4 is a good first plane given I have the other longer wooden planes? Or am I wrong here and should still look at a jack plane? Still confused about the whole bevel up or bevel down, as both get recommended as a first plane…
19 April 2017 at 11:12 am #311192I’d vote for a 4 1/2, just gives you some extra width to work with and a little bit more mass, the latter is probably personal preference.
Cant really comment on saws much i use a frame saw for basically everything.19 April 2017 at 11:14 am #311193A No. 4 is your best all-around bench plane to start with. You can plane just about anything with a No 4, large or small. You can do it with a jack like the No. 5 too, but it’s heavier, longer, and I think it won’t serve you as well when learning the craft on small projects. You’re going to be starting off building small boxes, not tables.
I’d recommend you start with a bevel down. Just my preference.
19 April 2017 at 12:07 pm #311194Would like to say a little in favour of Clifton. I have the #4½ – #7 from Clico, as well as from T Flinn-Garlick (current manufacturer). None of the planes has needed any preparation; ‘ready to use from the box. The blades hold edges well and are somewhat easier to sharpen then the Lie-Nielsen blades. The two-part cap irons of the Clifton planes are perhaps something of a mixed blessing, though the concept shortens the time for stropping.
Compared to Lie-Nielsen, it probably comes down to personal taste. LNs, I think are balanced closer to the centre of the plane (probably because of different materials in the frogs), while the totes of the Cliftons are marginally more comfy. The LNs totes are nicer when edge planing.
If a little heresy is allowed, I would say that a Clifton or Lie-Nielsen #5½ is well suited for most tasks.
Thomas Flinn-Garlick customer service has been really good (ordered bespoke saws and blades). The Lie-Nielsen service is perhaps unsurpassed, but resending across the Atlantic is probably a tad more complicated than over the Irish sea.
/soj
[attachment file=311195]
Attachments:
You must be logged in to view attached files.19 April 2017 at 2:22 pm #311231We pretty much exclusively recommend the no 4 Bailey plane as the best starting point as 95% of all planing can be done with it. We tend to favour the old Stanley & Record etc. Bailey pattern planes over the newer Bedrock patterns as they are lighter and easier to handle for many tasks. That and you can get a whole range of second hand planes for the price of one new premium plane. Here are some blogs you may find useful
Plane Choice and Bevel Up Planes:
https://paulsellers.com/2015/04/paul-long-plane-bevel-up-bevel-down-part-i
https://paulsellers.com/2015/05/paul-long-plane-bevel-up-bevel-down-part-ii
https://paulsellers.com/2013/06/which-plane-bevel-up-first-or-bevel-downFor those who are interested, the following posts below give details on what to look for when buying a Bailey bench plane second hand. We normally go for pre 70s planes as they were built to a higher standard and had wooden handles. The wooden handles are the way to tell, although it can be difficult to see from photos and a lot of the early plastic handle models work just fine. Other than that we don’t particularly pay attention to the changes that happened through the years:
https://paulsellers.com/2012/09/buying-good-tools-cheap-smoothing-planes
https://paulsellers.com/2011/06/buying-bench-planes-on-ebayHere are a few blog posts where Paul talks about which tools to get. He also covered this in detail in his latest book on Essential Woodworking Handtools:
This older blog post lists the tools that Paul recommends getting over time.
http://paulsellers.com/2011/12/my-essential-toolsHere are the first 10 to get:
http://paulsellers.com/2014/05/questions-answered-ten-hand-tools-three-jointsAnd here are some blog post on what to look out for:
http://paulsellers.com/?s=My+minimalist+tool+listhttps://paulsellers.com/tag/buying-good-tools-cheap/?orderby=&order=asc
All the best with your equipping.
Phil- This reply was modified 7 years ago by Philip Adams.
- This reply was modified 7 years ago by Philip Adams.
Welcome Tom!
Tools are quite different to most equipment based hobbies, so far as I have found. Newer and expensive *really* does not always mean better long term.
There are Lot of different approaches to doing this, all equally valid, depending on preference, finances and spare time, so you are probably justified whatever you choose.
Metal planes are different to wooden planes. Your longer wooden planes will definitely be useful if you want to do stock preparation by hand, but maintaining and using them is a slightly different skillset to learn than metal planes.
I bought one reasonable quality metal jack and a smoother at first and having one or two good quality metal planes does give you an idea of how the plane should feel and behave if you have no other reference. Anything in the 4, 4 1/2, 5 or 5 1/2 range will work as a good general purpose plane and you can do 90%+ of what you need with just one plane if you have to. If you are able, go to a shop and get a feel for the size and weight of those you are interested in.
That said, planes are known to be highly addictive for some reason, and you will probably want to then try out different sizes and types for different types of work in your workshop… This is usually prohibitively expensive if you go for all new and boutique brands (new DIY grade planes are not worth it at all!), but it’s surpisingly easy and liberating/satisfying to do with vintage tools – there are many resources to help with this if you choose and you can buy a whole suite of metal/wooden/joinery planes for the cost of one Lie Neilson, for example.
I know this may be hard to take to heart at your stage of the journey, but just about any reasonable vintage plane, with some time, effort and knowledge can be the equal of a new boutique brand.
If you have the base of one or two known good quality plane(s), you have more flexibility to experiment more with different sizes and types of plane if you choose to.
Some people seem to find Block planes indispensable and some have virtually no use for them. I don’t like them much. Maybe see if you can borrow or try one out, rather than splashing out on one?
Saws – find your own thing. Paul writes a lot against disposable hardpoints and I understand why, but honestly they are cheap and will work – which is what you need starting out. You could build up some making skills with hardpoint disposables (Western and/or Japanese) and then go down the resharpenable route (new or secondhand) if/when you are comfortable and know which type of saw you want.
btw I also have a clifton plane btw and it is excellent at what it does. I find that most negative comments about Cliftons tend to come from people who are fixated on the idea of Lie Neilson being some kind of Platonic ideal plane and so “nothing else will do” </sweeping generalization>
- This reply was modified 7 years ago by Mike I. Reason: edit for typo
Folks, thanks so much for the detailed replies! Mind made up on the saws for now, Japanese it is. I can and will revisit that issue when I have a bit more experience….
On the planes front, unfortunately I can’t get hands on very easily, but the info given above is very helpful, and clearly a bit more reading to do before I make a final decision, but I now know where my focus needs to be.
Look forward to being more involved with the forum and will update on the purchases made.
PS. All I can say as a beginner at this stage is that those cliftons sure look nice!
Thanks again.
In response to your question/ assertion about using a number #4 metal plane to flatten the longer wooden plane soles…
Whilst a #4 is very useful and it is possible to do this with a no #4, as a beginner you may find that you want something longer to do this well with a 22″ wooden plane. Plane soles need to be quite flat and the consequences of mistakes might correspondingly be more severe on a plane sole than they would be on a wooden project piece where errors of larger degree can sometimes be tolerated.
I have flattened quite a few wooden plane soles with metal planes and found that at my non-masterly skill level, a #5 length was more useful for this purpose than a #4.
In any case, I suggest don’t try to do it before you have built up some experience and skill planing project or test pieces first with the metal planes!
[quote quote=311293]
I have flattened quite a few wooden plane soles with metal planes and found that at my non-masterly skill level, a #5 length was more useful for this purpose than a #4.In any case, I suggest don’t try to do it before you have built up some experience and skill planing project or test pieces first with the metal planes!
[/quote]Thanks, Paul makes it look easy in his video on the subject, no surprise there! But I will put off restoring them until I have some experience with the plane, as you suggest. I wouldn’t want to mess them up any further!
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.