islamic prayer times clock

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  • #129724
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    Last night I get a text can you build me a prayer times clock. Of course I can so I ring up my suppliers and they’re out of stock awaiting shipment. Lucky I order for rainy days and I bought what little left they had. If I had 20 grand I would stock up to last me a minimum of two years or more.

    Anyway here is the timber I’m going to use camphour laurel beautiful easy to work with, with little tearout if I’m lucky. But the best part is there’s no twist, very little cupping should make planing a little easier on the old worn back.

    I will post the end results of the finished product when it’s done. Still even after 17 years of clock making i get nervous. Scared to muck it up something I cannot afford to do on beautiful timber. Once I choose my stock I slow right down and work at a crawl.

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

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Viewing 14 replies - 16 through 29 (of 29 total)
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  • #129887
    George FulfordGeorge Fulford
    Participant

    @georgeinnwfla

    @dborn – Thanks for posting those links. Very good reads all around, but then, when has Paul posted something that wasn’t?

    I think what my main problem with pricing something I make to sell is that I’m overly critical of what I’ve made. I can pick out every tiny flaw in something I’ve made and think I need to charge less for it. However, whenever someone has bought something of mine, I’ll point out that flaw and invariably, they say “pff, I don’t care about that. It’s the whole piece that looks good and that’s why I bought it from you.” One friend told me to shut up about it, she didn’t want to hear it. 🙂

    If you guys don’t mind me asking, what process do you use for pricing something you’ve made to sell? I generally price using cost of materials plus a percentage based on how involved the project is going to be, usually 1.5% – 2%.

    #129894
    dborndborn
    Member

    @dborn

    Good question and I’ve often thought that myself. I know the thought behind Paul’s blog was not to simply add materials plus man hours, because there is more to your own design than simply time and materials, but I think that’s a good start. I would imagine a skilled laborer is worth in-between $50-75 an hour. Of course out of that hourly rate it would pay for shop overhead and a salary, materials would be extra. So a hand crafted jewellery box that takes a day, 8 hours,to build should be worth no less than $400. It seems like a step price, but as a working craftsman your time is money and craftsman deserve a fair profit, because of all reasons stated before. Of course if this is a hobby and you are selling to friends, I wouldn’t hesitate to discount prices….

    #129897
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    Max wheeler you made my day.

    Pricing is a difficult subject for hand toolers and I’ve been asking myself this question for a very, very long time, just how much should I charge. I’ve read a book on this subject from popular woodworking and it didn’t help me at all. Their pricing structure is based upon unrealistic completion times and machinery involved in the making. They claim an average shop time is $35/hour, then overheads plus materials and after all of that 300% mark up. Wow 300%? But when I look at the prices of items in the shops that’s exactly what it is so you can imagine just how cheap the manufacturer gets his materials plus labour. They also claim if you were to sell to shops then expect to sell it at 50% less, if you were to sell it to a wholesaler then even less than that. So none of that theory can be applied to me, since none of my work so far could be completed in a any given single day. If I employed machinery plus a laser cutter and a CNC then the bulk of the work would be completed in less than a day but you then have finishing so I would need spray equipment a space suit to finish the finish in a day or two at the most.. Having all that equipment I would be able to on my own complete several clocks by the end of a single week. Now with this mass production type work I could charge what they recommend and be competitive.

    If I were to go down that road I would be abandoning every principle I believe in and have fought so hard to promote. Let’s face it many people I speak to love to hear that everything is entirely hand made but no one would ever go down that road because it’s just financially not feasible, personally I believe people are lazy. I’ve given many examples just to get off the topic for a sec just how mass manufacturing can be applied in the hand tool world and the most obvious one is employ more people. But you can see it in their eyes where greed kicks in and the fear of sharing profits amongst your workers don’t sit too well with them. Wenzloff & Sons are popular and I can imagine how months or years their back log is, even though they use sophisticated machinery still many things are done by hand and just how many are in the shop building not many I suspect, however Lie Nielson is also all about quality and he too uses sophiscated machinery but is capable of mass manufacturing at a high quality rate to meet his demands by employing several people in his shop. So my point is you cannot work alone or in small numbers and expect to truly compete in a mass manufacturing arena. So you specialize and take your time in standing out from the rest which is not only time consuming but does realistically cost you a lot. Unless you have a great name and constant work orders flowing in and a large capital to cover your basic living needs plus to sustain your material costs your pretty much doomed from the get go but you persist and do a second job. Thommas Lie Nielson wasn’t born with a silver spoon in his mouth but he is a business man, he started just like us with nothing. Worked till late at nights in his shed and persisted with it. He ran it as a business and succeeded.

    So to get back to pricing, according to that book and I can’t remember the name of it I calculated the hours, plus materials plus 300% markup and one item came to $20,000. Which reminds me of a clock I saw in a gallery for $30,000 and according to him this is the new and improved version which says to me he is selling. I did it again on a business card holder and the price came to $300 but looking at it its not worth more than $50 and it’s time consuming to make. I personally don’t believe I can afford to charge those prices even though if I were to earn a sustainable healthy income from this that is what I should be charging but reality not negativism says I would be an idiot to sell at those ridiculously high prices. You would find one or two people who would pay those prices but the general market wouldn’t and those are your bread and butters the earlier are the cream of the crop. So you can see our predicament, just how do we charge for what we do. If we are overly expensive then no one will buy no matter how good it is, if we are cheap again no one will buy so what is a happy medium.

    Considering I have wasted 17years in the belief that cheap was my only alternative and the 8 years prior to that was only hobby I am at loss in knowing what to charge. I know that cheap is not the answer because it didn’t work for the last 17 years but I now know that pricing to what it’s worth is the answer and does sell and that my friends is what I think the answer to your question is. For now atleast.

    Before I begin a project that project is already finished, completed in my head. I visualized it and I know what it looks like, I know the materials needed that will suit it. I then predict just by it’s looks alone what it’s worth, I’ve always known it was worth more than what I was charging, anyway I look at the materials on hand that I will need to complete this and I know instantly whether or not this clock or furniture is viable or not. I do this just by its worth and cost of materials plus the time it takes to make alone. One example is a phong clock it’s a Chinese pattern design and I know that black American walnut would be a great choice with a brass clock insert, I also know that it’s worth or should I say that people would expect to pay no more than a $150 for it but when I was cheap all I could think of was a fire sale at $50. So I abandoned making it because the materials alone would cost me close to that. Now I’m thinking the price will be anywhere between $150-175 and that to me is worth me making as before being too cheap wasn’t.

    I know it’s not the correct method of calculation but I don’t know of any other method I could employ without blowing the prices out of the water. Remember I work alone, I use hand tools, a lathe and a scroll saw when needed all of this is done by hand so it’s time consuming. I plane every timber from its rough sawn state and that’s time consuming sometimes an all day event. I have to rip up several boards, chop mortises and not poke them with a mortiser. All this takes time and I never rush any operation but I enjoy the process so back to pricing how in the world can I charge my time for choosing to work with hand tools as other methods such as machinery is made available to me. Time is money thats the old saying but I don’t care too much for either of them, I continue to work at my own pace, I continue to build quality over profits, I survive.

    So after boring you all with my words in the end I’ve come up with no real solution. The question still remains. How much does one charge for their product. My current solution is this come on you did read a lot so I have to leave you with something. Here is a simple formulae I’ve come up with.

    Looks + quality + materials = worth. Please don’t ask me about time it doesn’t fit into this equation not in the hand tool world.

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

    #129938
    MaxWheelerMaxWheeler
    Participant

    @maxwheeler

    Salko, you choose to work your wood from the rough by hand. But are you adding the materials as rough sawn or planed all ’round? Because planed timber comes at a premium that you should certainly be charging for.

    Yes, you choose to plane timber from the rough, in recent years my body isn’t taking the abuse so I purchased a thicknesser so I only have to plane half the board and thickness the rest by machine. Who paid for the machine? It didn’t come out of my pocket, it came out of profits. Running the machine costs money and I charge that to my customers. Like my father always told me “You can either pay with money or with time, and time is more expensive.”

    I don’t mind sharing out some figures…

    In some months I have made 4000 GBP which is amazing but most of the time I make half of that… if that sometimes… And out of that comes my electricity, I have to run a van too and the funny thing is that the day I decided to triple my prices was the day I was really really really really poor for about two months. Then I slowly picked up a new breed of more appreciative clients willing to spend the money for the quality, since then business has gone from strength to strength.

    I’m still far from making the money I think craftsman deserve but at least now I’m generally making the national average wage in my country which is about 22,000 annually. That doesn’t go far in a family on a single income but we’re happy!

    This will infuriate you but I often get called up by people offering me to do framing carpentry or some site joinery at often £200 per day which is like 40k a year. Double what I’m making and half the skill required. That’s life for you!

    Swindon, England

    #129944
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    What you say is true I cannot say anything otherwise but I want to thank you for pointing it out to me in regards to charging for a planed board. I never really thought about it.

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

    #130004
    MaxWheelerMaxWheeler
    Participant

    @maxwheeler

    Desperate to see this piece in progress/finished…

    Swindon, England

    #130218
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    The clocks are finally complete, they come with 6 time pieces all in brass and real glass I should emphasise that many times suppliers advertise as glass but in fact it’s not real glass but crystal glass which is not real crystal either but very thin plastic that resembles glass. It’s not easy to tell the difference between the two. I can usually tell just by looking at it but for the average jo would believe it to be real glass.

    The finish on it is boiled linseed oil two coats over two days and then two extra days drying time then three coats of home brewed shellac and finally waxed and buffed.

    The name tags are magnetic and have been recessed.
    Dimensions are: 10.5″x31″x7/8″

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

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    #130223
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    Some more

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

    Attachments:
    #130228
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    and more

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

    Attachments:
    #130233
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    last one

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

    Attachments:
    #130235
    dborndborn
    Member

    @dborn

    Both of those turned out very nice. I will say, however, the one on the right is stunning! Love the grain pattern and color!

    #130237
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    Thanks Dan as you know not all timbers offer the same especially when I only had just two separate 36″ lengths available but it actually turned out in my favour unintentionally. You have morning, noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers, the light coloured timber shows the morning till noon prayer and the dark coloured shows the afternoon till night prayer, hows that for a fluke. A friend of mine pointed that out to me I didn’t even plan it it just happened. I’m over the moon that this happened. I can’t wait to see the look on my customers face, I wonder if he’ll pick it out as well.

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

    #130345
    George FulfordGeorge Fulford
    Participant

    @georgeinnwfla

    Outstanding work, my friend! 🙂

    #130531
    Salko SaficSalko Safic
    Participant

    @salko

    Thanks George I appreciate that.

    https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com
    The Lost Scrolls of HANDWORK
    (Hand tool only woodworking magazine)

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