Problem restoring a Stanley #4: frog seems too far back
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Hi,
Following Paul’s advice I bought a used Stanley #4 and have been trying for some time to get it set up properly. One issue I can’t seem to solve is that even with the frog adjustment screw tightened as far as it can go, the mouth opening is still fairly large. I’ve attached a few photos and would say it struggles to get any tighter than 1/16″. If I slacken the screw the frog does move backwards so it isn’t broken but when I tighten as far as it goes it just doesn’t close the mouth more than shown in the pictures.
In Paul’s book and in several videos I’ve seen the mouth opening described as the width of a sheet of paper (for very fine work). While the plane does work I’d like to close it some more to avoid tearout in some cases. Any suggestions on what I might be doing wrong would be much appreciated.
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You must be logged in to view attached files.25 February 2015 at 11:45 am #125033I take it you’ve had everything apart? That would be my first stop, check there isn’t something jamming either the frog or the screw. Check right down into the bottom of the female threads.
If nothing’s holding up the movement of the frog and the screw just has limited travel, I can think of a couple of options. Either remove the yoke (?) that connects the frog to the adjustment screw altogether and adjust the frog manually, or stick a washer or other packing material between the yoke and the frog to move the frog forward (if there’s room).
That’s general advice, I’m not aware of any reason the manufacturer would have intentionally stopped the mouth closing any further.
Matt
Thanks for the helpful replies. Attached are a few more photos in case this helps.
I have taken the plane apart completely and don’t see anything broken or suspicious to my untrained eye. I loosen the frog retaining screws and after doing so the frog moves freely when I turn the frog adjustment screw. I attached an image showing how far forward the frog travels when I turn the adjustment screw to the extreme forward position. The limiting factor is the adjustment screw running out of threads but it does turn freely until then.
I also have an image showing the blade and iron cap, they are very close together, somewhere between 1/16 and 1/32″ apart.
Just in case there are some non-original parts here (I bought this on ebay) I also measured the frog adjustment screw when removed at 2.4cm (15/16″). The mouth itself of the plane body (with no blade present) is somewhere between 3/16″ and 1/4″. The distance from the bottom of lateral adjustment opening on the cap iron to the end of the cap iron (right next to the bevel of the blade) is 9.1cm.
Would a longer frog adjustment screw possibly help? Does the image of the frog’s position seen from above suggest the frog needs to be further forward or does this seem more of a problem with the cap iron’s relationship to the iron?
Thanks for any help!
Attachments:
You must be logged in to view attached files.25 February 2015 at 12:46 pm #125038in pic 155 your iron looks like it itsn’t square,also in pic 244 the frog looks like it is too far forward but its very difficult to tell from pictures alone
25 February 2015 at 12:54 pm #125039It’s hard to tell from the pics, but it looks about right to me when the blade is retracted. How big is the mouth when you have the blade extended to where it starts to take a shaving? That’s the important measure. The mouth closes up as you extend the blade.
Is your lateral adjustment set? Because like Eddy said, it looks like your blade may not be square, but you might just not have it adjusted square in the mouth.
25 February 2015 at 2:22 pm #125042I think the blade isn’t square because the frog isn’t square. That’s the impression I get from img*553. It’s quite important that the frog be equidistant from the front of the mouth on both sides.
My method for adjusting the mouth on a plane is to take it apart just enough to loosen the retaining screws on the frog just enough that I can advance it with the adjustment screw. Then I put the plane back together, advance the blade to where it just peaks out past the sole, and then adjust the mouth opening with everything in situ. Once I’m happy with what I have, I take the blade out again, get the frog square and even, and tighten down the retaining screws.
I would suggest you don’t set the chipbreaker any closer to any point of the edge of the blade than about 0.3mm. Otherwise it’s going the be quite difficult to advance the blade properly, and odds on the chip breaker will get clogged with shavings. Generally 0.3-0.8mm is ideal. Ofcourse, it’s a bit of personal preference, but those numbers work for me.
Other than that, grind the edge of the blade as square as possible, and use your adjustment lever to compensate. Bear in mind, the greater the skew on your blade, the more you’re going to have to use the adjustment lever. This tends to advance the blade on one side and close up the mouth on that side anyway. As a result, without a square (although not necessarily straight) blade, you’re not going to be able to close the mouth up properly anyway. I suppose you could compensate with the frog, but I wouldn’t want to try it.
25 February 2015 at 8:12 pm #125054Hi
Could it be that the mouth is just too wide Somebody could have opened it up at some time, maybe to use the plane as a scrub planeHave you anyway of measuring the width of the mouth I will measure the width of my no 4 and send it to you tomorrow
25 February 2015 at 8:40 pm #125056The frog adjustment screw is not vital, in fact I think I’m right in saying it was the last meaningful addition to the Bailey design and thousands of planes were manufactured without one. If it’s causing problems take it off, the frog adjustment will only be slightly more painful; the best way I know is to slacken the retaining screws just enough that you can advance the frog with taps from a small steel hammer.
Honestly though, if this is your only plane, I’d leave it as it is. Very tight mouth openings are a hindrance to general work.
Matt
Thanks for all the great responses, it’s been very helpful.
I just measured the mouth opening itself, looks to be about 5.5mm. I don’t see much evidence it’s been filed but if anyone can measure their opening that would be helpful. Does this agree with what a #4 should measure?
I checked my blade for square and it is indeed about 1/32″ out of square, good call. I guess I should go back to using a jig, my hand sharpening is not up to snuff yet. Paul makes it look so easy. 🙂
The frog was not square in the photo, I was being a bit sloppy in putting things back together to get the pictures taken. When I had the frog square though I still had the same problem.
I’m going to try fixing the blade to be square which does seem like it should help and will report back.
Just to be sure I’m not after something that isn’t possible, can others (if they choose to) get their #4 to the point where the blade just starts taking a shaving and with the mouth less than 1/32″ open? And if so, does any part of the frog poke past the mouth opening when removing the blade assembly? Mine gets almost there but stays a bit shy.
26 February 2015 at 1:25 am #125064Yes, the front bottom lip of the frog can and should extend past the opening of the mouth. If it doesn’t, the blade sits awkwardly on the opening of the mouth, and doesn’t seat properly on the frog. This causes your plane to run absolutely terribly, and you won’t be able to work out why.
You can take very good shavings without closing the mouth up completely. I’d say 1/16th is probably fairly close to ideal for general work.
What kind of jig are you using to sharpen your plane blade? It’s entirely possible that that is part of the problem. Until I stopped using jigs I couldn’t get a decent result. It’s also possible that when you got the blade, it was already out of square. The best solution is going to be to carefully regrind the edge on a benchgrinder, and from then on just try to maintain a square edge when honing.
If you could remove the frog and take some good photos of it, that might also help to diagnose the problem.
26 February 2015 at 5:02 pm #125082Hi The mouth on my stanley No 4 measures 0.190″ = 4.83mm not enough difference to cause a problem I would think
26 February 2015 at 10:24 pm #125097@heathh the mouth on my favourite #4 is 5mm in pic 449 is the blade in the right way up as the gap underneath it makes it look like its upside down.sorry if that sounds daft but i remember doing it when i was first setting up a plane long before youtube put me straight lol
If you really want to extend the frog forward of its current position because it wont go any further then you may have to use a small round file on the back of the slots in the frog to elongate them (underneath the frog retaining screws seen in your photo). However, you may experience a problem with the washers under the frog retaining screws and may need to elongate their holes as well with the same file. The frog may then go a little further forward. Make sure that it is square to the plane mouth.
The last of the problems that you may encounter is that, when the blade/chipbreaker is in place at the furthest forward position, there may be a lack of support from the plane base to the bevel. The lowest support to the blade/chipbreaker will then come from the frog.
But before you do any of this, check with the frog support bearers on the base that the support is in the right place. Run a black permanent marker over the frog support bearers and tighten the frog in place, then disassemble to see where the permanent marker film has been removed.
I hope that this helps!
Cheers MarkH -
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