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10 November 2022 at 2:49 pm #779823
Robust debate is a good thing when done right. Disagreements will arise in the pursuit of knowledge!
With respect to the mathematical machining of wood, how hand planes are employed, and flat workbenches as a reference surface in your work:
– I totally agree on your description of how planes are used, Ed. Excellent.
– On whether to dimension workpieces precisely, it depends on what you’re making. Most people are going to teach that accurate stock prep is the basis for good work, and allows for faster completion of a project in all later stages of joinery. Paul certainly teaches that.
– On whether a flat workbench is useful and much used, I look at the history and the present in traditional woodworking.
As far I as can see, many famous furniture builders have dimensioned boards that are resting on well-maintained traditional workbenches. No-one would accuse James Krenov of being a machinist in wood. He was the consummate artisan. Yet he emphasizes the importance of the workbench in his training as a young man, and the importance of it in his mature work. Including flatness, I must add. Add to this, people like Chris Schwarz, Rob Cosman, David Charlesworth, Matt Estlea and his connection to formal Academic English woodworking, and the picture starts to come into focus. Working on a reliable surface, and dimensioning one’s work accurately, is the norm that I’ve learned and now practice to some extent. And yet my attitude toward wood and furniture is more aligned with James Krenov than cleverly-machined furniture design.
For what it’s worth, I practiced woodworking on a plywood-top workbench with a quick-release vice bolted to it for a while. When I finally got my big workbench into operation, it absolutely sped up my work and made more things possible in terms of the efficient use of planes. This is because I can now drop a 7’ long x 18” wide board down on it, fasten it perfectly on both ends in seconds, and dimension it as quick as you like, in any direction. And again, as soon as I rough one side, I can flip the board over and flatten my reference surface very fast indeed, because of the reliability of its support on the bench. But smaller boards also prep faster on this setup too.Ed, I won’t debate for a second that what you’re doing works for you with what you want to build. But as far as what all these other professionals do and whether it is standard practice or unusual, their techniques and opinions are on the record.
So.. go build stuff, yes. But take a little time
to square up your stock on 4 sides initially. You’ll feel good about your work, and your work will be the finer for it. And probably simpler and faster too.
Sincerely,
Tom10 November 2022 at 1:50 am #779777Hi John,
The shavings may go the 12-15″ due to physical ability to put downward pressure on the plane with a thicker shaving in oak, or wood that is either not totally flat on one or both sides or is not supported on a flat enough surface.
This is all normal stuff around hand tools and the work surfaces you use when working. A flattened workbench is a big help depending on how you hold your work and how big your boards are. You’re on your way and I can suggest that its just a matter of continuously and patiently problem-solving for the fun of the whole process.I watch people like Paul Sellers, try to pick up on the nuances they share, and put it all to the test with real live action. Here some thoughts on stock prep.
I find Paul’s method of planing the faces of boards while clamped in the vice quite interesting. He is able to take shavings down the length of a board while its only clamped in the middle, and he does it all the time. The clamped board acts as a spring against which he is working while he planes. I find this wild and crazy in the best senses, and probably genius if you can work accurately this way! Paul works very efficiently in hand tools.By contrast, others will use a workbench that is flat, supports the board as it is clamped / stopped in some form, and rely on the support underneath the board as they true the board. In this method, I will slide shims such as index 3×5 cards or thicker if needed, to support a board that is not true, as I begin to true one face. This shimming becomes rather a necessity while flattening thinner boards around 1″ thick. A 3″ thick beam won’t need those shims as much because it won’t really deflect under planing. Then, with one face flat or nearly flat, I may flip the board over and work to true the other side more easily, now that the opposite side is resting more consistently on the flat workbench. Then I may decide which side will be the “Face” “Reference” side from which I’ll thickness the board. The second side may be the likely side that I stick with for fully truing since its now fairly well-supported by the roughly trued opposite face. And prior to this, the edges need to be somewhere near a right angle to the reference face. I do work some boards in the quick release vice like Paul Sellers does. But I now also have a bench that has a working wagon / tail vice and bench dog holes all down its length. I have found it helpful for flattening very large, long, heavy wide boards. For what its worth.
But now you can see how Paul Sellers flattening his boards in the vice jaws bypasses all this shimming and perfectly flat workbenches handily… He has been doing it for so many years that he, the tool, the wood and the bench all hum along perfectly. I suppose its a question of what you ultimately find reduces variables in the way of success. Paul may view the requirements of a flat bench, tail or wagon vises, bench dogs, and shimming of stock as unwanted variables compared to his effortless style at the English workbench and its quick-release vice. Another may prefer the approach where they work up through a big Roubo bench and super-controlled sharpening with honing guides to get results. Less freehand, more guides and reference surfaces I guess. Far from me to say one way is wrong or right. They are just different. Another example: Paul uses a mortising guide clamped against his work as a reference for the chisel. Somewhere along the way, he decided that having such a guide was a useful aid to making better mortises. In this case, the decision was in favor of a guide of some type to keep things straight rather than relying on freehand and sighting of the tool / work. So even with one person, they may go one direction or another based on what works best for them.
Relaxation of the body is key, I think. Tight grip and tense muscles may make it harder to process good feedback and balance while working with hand tools. Yes, pressure and force are sometimes needed, but they are not the same as undesirable muscle tension. For example, if you want to hold out your fist and keep someone from moving it, you will naturally tense up all opposing muscles in your arm, and probably your shoulder and core muscles. We can do this with tools too, and not realize it fully, tensing up our muscles to get more control, we think. But if we sharpen our minds and focus on being sensitive to the tool and the wood, we can build confidence in the forces we apply without having to rely on “opposing muscle tensions.” I tend to naturally over-tension my body at times without realizing it. I give things the death grip too easily whether its a pencil or a chisel handle. But this needs to be “thought” and practiced against. I drink regular coffee but I’m trying to cut back and drink more decaf. Too much caffeine seems to put my mind toward tighter grip / more tension if anything. But I’ve been hooked on coffee for way too long. Such is life.
I should probably give your thread here a break for your and others’ sake. Good luck and best wishes as you continue John! Too much writing here from me in the light of what we want is simple clarity and a peaceful way with woodworking!
Sincerely,
Tom10 November 2022 at 12:18 am #779770Thank you Sven-Olof,
Thank you for adding this relevant information!
Along these lines, I learned that chopping end-grain with a chisel has complexities around the type of wood.
I once chopped end-grain on a dried beam of Douglas Fir that I assumed would be easy on my chisel. Instead, to my alarm, the confident first chopping quickly folded said chisel edge in certain areas. Areas that I think corresponded to the harder portions of the growth rings – that were surrounded by spongier, softer wood. The chisel was fairly damaged in fact. This chisel was not a Japanese chisel with a very hard cutting edge smithed to a softer body. It was a generic Western-type chisel with consistently softer steel through the blade.I learned that day that the homogeneity or lack thereof in wood may really affect a chisel’s capability while chopping end-grain. If a wood is hard or soft, but highly homogenous in density and resistance to the severing of its fibers, a chisel is more evenly “supported” by surrounding wood during the blow of a mallet. In other words the chisel meets with relatively even stresses along its cutting / severing edge.
Then take the highly un-homogeneous wood. And assume that the chisel meets the growth rings at a nearly parallel angle as in chopping down the end grain of a quartersawn board, with growth rings pointing upward toward the chisel. The chisel is struck, and the stresses upon the blade’s edge are concentrated where the wood’s harder strands lie. And the chisel is more prone to deformation of edge.This description is still a simplification of what is happening. The bevel angle of the chisel and the chopping depth before relief-cutting also influence how a chisel fares when chopping like this. If heavy chopping is done all at once with no relief to the chisel bevel, I believe that the forces of pressed wood against the bevel “pile up” or pressurize and “try” to deform the chisel edge. And if the harder growth rings pass down the chopping face at any angle, think about how this would further press for deformation of an edge with several heavy blows to a chisel into this wood. This all is the best explanation I have for why a chisel unexpectedly failed in what I thought was soft wood. Perhaps there were other variables and unfortunately I don’t have a fully scientific compilation and report to offer. I hope this may serve as material for thought.
One may suspect that Japanese chisels evolved with this type of material in mind. Material that may be termed softwood but that has exceedingly hard growth rings alongside very soft growth rings. A Japanese chisel is build with the goal of delivering a hard slicing edge on a tool that is not liable to crack from brittleness. Perhaps also, this is the best goal for dealing with any wood. Or weapon such as a sword.
Thanks again for the photo-illustrated discussion of climate and growth rings as related to tool design. It certainly got me thinking.
Sincerely,
Tom
Maryland9 November 2022 at 11:26 pm #779766Hi John,
Just off to work but watched your videos of the new plane performing. Nice work getting the plane going!
Those are about the width of the shavings I take with my #4 at the moment as well.
I see that your shavings are thin, but in time can get thinner when you wish to do final smoothing.
I vary both shaving width and shaving thickness based on the work.
You see Paul increasing his blade protrusion to hog off material, then dialing it back to smooth out.
Well done, and what a satisfying thing to be able to accomplish. You are off to the races with a fine Heirloom quality #4.
Sincerely,
Tom9 November 2022 at 11:08 pm #779765Hi Ed,
What was it about the Lie-Nielsen chisels that led you to move along to something else?
I’ve used my original Lie-Nielsen 3/4″ wide chisel in particular for about 12yrs alongside a rather average variety of chisels and I’m interested in what you found.
Its likely that you and John, like Paul Sellers, may be more in touch with some of this.
Thanks kindly,
Tom9 November 2022 at 3:04 pm #779693Hi Ed and John,
I agree with everything you wrote. I think Paul used the #78 rebate as a scrub partly due to its heft in his hand but I’m not sure…
As far as buying better lumber, I totally agree Ed. Or use a massive power jointer and planer. Then turn off all the machines, do a little perfecting and smoothing with hand planes and do the joinery however you like. 🙂On sharpening, honing guides and digging into stones when going freehand: I use Lie-Nielsen with different jaw attachments so I can do mortise chisels, etc. I also have a cheap record pattern honing guide from years ago. Its annoying compared to the LN. The Veritas honing guide looks nice and versatile but also complicated / slower to use but as I’ve never used one I can’t really say. I work free hand for a lot of my specialty blades. I have the Tormek and some DMT diamond plates and credit cards for this and other items… However, the Lie-Nielsen guide does the bulk of my regular chisel and plane bade sharpening simply and efficiently. Matt Estlea’s cambering method works with the plane blade clamped in the honing guide, that’s how I do it as well. Mileage may vary on exact count of strokes, etc…
As far as “digging in” freehand on diamond / versus Shapton synthetic / versus true Japanese water stones, Diamond stones don’t cause digging in, Shapton, I think not much, water stones do, particularly going up into the higher grits. I use pull stroke only on higher grits such as 4,000 grit and up when doing secondary bevel on a plane blade in the honing guide. The Tormek leather wheel with their honing compound always seems to put a keener polished edge when used. I think it cleans residual junk off a sharpened edge as it polishes. But I’m cautious with it if I don’t want a rounded edge particularly with chisel backs. I generally want RC 60-62 chisels that are precision machined on all surfaces from the maker. That tends toward Veritas PMV-11 chisels and Lie-Nielsen A2 Steel chisels. I do have some Japanese chisels and saws but I made the decision at some point to work on mastering all the cutting tools of traditional woodworking like Paul Sellers, basically European and pre-industrial American. I went this route because I found the sharpening of these tools , particularly the saws, more within reach and I kind of wanted to learn a whole system of tools that I could understand and maybe master. I also found that Japanese joinery sometimes works with different wood than what I use in North America. This complicates the question of whether different Japanese tools are really meant for what I do. I think I kind of have this respect that Japanese joinery and the tools that go with it are a highly sophisticated integral system that won’t necessarily work if I pull a few tools from their toolbox and use them in my Western shop. But many other woodworkers’ experiences don’t prove this entirely true. And, Western tool makers and woodworkers teach sharpening on Japanese water stones all the time. So they have become an integral part of Western traditional woodworking.
Its interesting how there are different approaches to sharpening that will get you very sharp. Master woodworkers like Rob Cosman and Paul Sellers all seem to emphasize the speed and simplicity of their sharpening so they don’t waste time. I like that. If you can get scary sharp, wicked fast, you’re doing something right!
I’ve thought for several years now that truly the basis or foundation for everything in my shop is in fact, my DMT truing plate. Because from the flatness of that surface comes all other precision. That, and the hunk of granite, sized and machined for flattening plane soles. Without this foundation for the tools, nothing else would proceed well. With a true foundation, all else may proceed.
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9 November 2022 at 12:38 am #779620Congrats on the purchase of some good tools, very awesome. At the moment I also mostly use the LN 4 and 5 which I think matches your choice.
Here are some extra thoughts based on some experience with Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Stanley Bailey and others:
– If you’re starting with rough-sawn lumber needing significant truing, a true scrub plan is hard to do without. I use the Veritas Scrub Plane with PMV-11 blade, which holds its edge for a long time in harsh use. As you may know, Scrub planes are small and typically come with a very tight-radius camber. Try turning rough hardwood lumber into trued, refined boards, and you’ll know why. A wider blade with more shallow camber struggles where the true scrub thrives.-If on the other hand you are starting with machine-dimensioned lumber off of your jointer and planer, I’d go straight to the Lie-Nielsen #4 plane without hesitation. It will bring back the nicer sheen of hand-planed wood very successfully.
If I had to get only two planes, I’d probably get the Lie-Nielsen 4 and 5. Or, the 4 or 5 and a Router Plane. I reach for the 5 constantly to true boards and planks of different lengths prior to joinery. The 4 on the other hand is an absolute gem for smoothing. I put a mild camber on both of these blades for these purposes. Without camber, these planes don’t work well for anything except running down the edge of a board. However, camber is good for edge joining too. Camber is good for almost everything and it takes time and practice to put this correctly into a new Lie-Nielsen blade since its a thick blade. But it must be done for most work…
As far as other planes I have worked with a lot, here are are a few:
– The Lie-Nielsen #62 Jack plane. I used this a lot before using the LN 4 and 5. It is good, however, I’ve always found that compared to the LN 4 or 5, it cannot work as long, and without tear-out, through gnarly hardwoods. It is totally appropriate for end-grain, however.
– The Veritas #4 with PMV-11 blade: I like the concept in theory, but it practice it is so difficult in the Norris fine-adjustment compared to the ease of the LN yoke adjusters, that I don’t gravitate toward it. The pros are that it is a rugged plane and has comfortable handles for bigger hands. And it has set screws to capture the blade. However, I never find this much of an issue with the LN planes that don’t have this…
– Small block planes: its sure nice to have one around for a multitude of tasks. Get a Lie-Nielsen and you won’t regret it. Its simple, well-designed, refined and will hold up forever without issue. This was my first plane many years ago and it still gets constant use in my shop. Mine is a high-angle block plane but if you have a smoothing plane, I recommend the low angle that they now sell.
– Router Plane. I have the LN. This tool is interesting. Actually, properly speaking, if I had to live with only two planes, again I might have to go with a 4 or 5 and a router plane. Its virtually indispensable for so many joinery processes. Paul Sellers really brings this to light in his work.
– #7 jointer plane: great, if one can afford it eventually. Useful for flattening very large surfaces such as a bench top, jointing long, wider boards and the like. Due to its length and weight. At the same time, I think that I can do almost the same with a #5 as long as I pay more attention to where I’m going with a surface, using straight edges. But those straight edges then have to be pretty long and accurate. I think of a #7 or 8 as a luxury for someone who either has the money, the strong desire to own one, or makes larger pieces for a living. Or all of the above lol.With respect to high-angle frogs and low angle planes for shooting boards. I approve of both things since they will expand your range of capability, your options. But bear in mind that you’ll eventually likely covet a true shooting board plane with a skewed blade. So, I can advise waiting and saving up for that tool if you want to, rather than buying for example, a large low-angle jack-plane such as the LN 62.
As far as plane quality and types in general. I found that buying the nicest standard cast-design plane I could afford lowered the learning curve and helped me learn how to really sharpen and use hand planes. The Lie-Nielsen #4 in particular is just a very user-friendly plane to set up and use. As far as usability, I haven’t found anything that gives such easy on-the-fly adjustability as the Lie-Nielsen yoke adjuster system. This really speeds up planing compared to anything else I’ve used. I do have a Bailey plane but I think it needs a better blade, and I also think that it is not as precisely-manufactured as the LN planes. I’m pretty sure that there are little inconsistencies throughout that keep it from performing at the level of its LN counterpart. That said, it is far, far lighter. One thing I have learned from dimensioning hard chestnut oak for hours at a time is this – Lie-Nielsen planes work well in terms of their weight when working hardwoods. However, that said, I have to be really careful with how I handle them. I can handle a LN 5 for 4-6 hours almost non-stop planing – but – if I try to lift, hold or turn the plane with only one hand holding the main handle, my wrist tires and can even develop strain injuries. So basically, planing with two hands is fine, but any motion to lubricate the sole, brush dust out of the interior of the plane during work, etc, has to be done carefully so I don’t strain my wrists. Thats where the issue arises when using heavy planes, I find. In general, I find that slowing down and thinking about what I’m doing and how I’m working reduces injury from strain. Some of my joints are already getting worn down from manual labor so I’m being more and more careful to work smart rather than bulldoze my way through things. I suppose that’s all part of the natural process of learning to master something.
What about wooden-body planes a-la James Krenov? I don’t have much experience with them. I did however get to try them at Colonial Williamsburg, VA. I liked what I felt. Honestly, I think my future lies towards wooden planes. Less oxidation of iron bodies, and lighter so less physical strain. They require more skill, experience and attention to run well. But for the master, they are to be preferred because they are a delight to use. And you can make them for specific tasks, to fit your personal ergonomics. You should always use the lightest tool that will get the job done for you… Which is partly why Paul uses the #4 Stanley Bailey so much. He can go all day on that.
As far as care: Heavy planing can be hard work and make your fingers and hands perspire enough to mess with iron-body planes. It may not be so much that one person has acidic hands more than another, if you’re perspiring while doing hard work! My LN planes tend to get very minor rust areas at the front near the knob, but on the raw iron sides where my hand contacts that area. No amount of faithful waxing or oiling has prevented this rust from accumulating albeit very lightly. But I’m getting ready to put a heavy duty clear finish on my plane sides to more permanently keep rust from happening. This will be a metal-adhering clear Polyurethane which is super hard and tough.
For the sole, rust has never proven to be a problem. I use candlewax or Jojoba oil while planing. For the area of tight contact between the chip-breaker and the blade where they are clamped together by the screw, I do find that some kind of oxidation can build up there if one doesn’t stay on it. I can recommend higher quality industrial metal protectants here rather than something like Jojoba Oil. I like Jojoba Oil but I would rank it low on being a rust preventative compared to high-quality industrial products designed to protect steel from rust.Sharpening; I use a big Tormek stone wheel-in-water maching, leather stropping wheel as desired, plus water stones. The Tormek primarily keeps the main bevel angle of a blade under control, particularly the upper, obtuse-angled edge up from the cutting edge of a plane blade. I’d call this the back edge of the main bevel. Doing this then allows me to spend minimal time on the water stones setting the main bevel in 1,000 grit followed by a tiny secondary bevel in 3/6k, 4/8k and 10k if desired / (not necessary). I do use the “ruler trick” for plane blades, using a very, very thin steel 6″ ruler. This works very well. I use honing guides and again, the LN guide is excellent. Using guides speeds accurate sharpening and reduces premature waste on both chisel and plane blade lengths over the years. Believe me… Some folks love sharpening free-hand but its not for everyone. Don’t be ashamed to use honing guides and reduce the variables around your efforts to run a plane really, really well. Figuring out super-accurate free-hand sharpening at the same time as figuring out really, really good planing work is a tough go. Get good sharpening down to where it is very reliable and repeatable, and you are pretty much on your way to highly successful planing. At least this is how I go about it in the Lie-Nielsen oriented fashion my shop operates. These extremely-accurately sharpened, relatively heavy planes will perform at truly fine levels along the lines of what David Charlesworth looks for in plane performance. Oh, and if you are using a Lie-Nielsen, don’t hesitate to follow their sharpening videos on youtube. Their approach is very minimal and very, very refined… Do it and your blades will last a lifetime and be a joy to use. If you start to think of the “why” the way they sharpen, you’ll see that it makes sense on a smart level that is more complex than some of us think about sharpening. Learn that information. Speaking of which, the sharpening book by the founder of Veritas is pretty useful.
Finally, I don’t write here often. But I can share that Paul has really been a great teacher. He has played a huge role in making hand-tool woodworking more accessible to me. I haven’t found anyone better for this anywhere. I haven’t found that my experiences matches his exactly in the the shop, but his wisdom is a great base-line to work from as you learn about your tools and the material you’re working with. For example, I do like a big thick Roubo bench, no apron, with acres of trued, flat surface to work on for flattening boards. But then again, Paul’s approach with his bench and vice work very well for a lot of things and he does fine with it. And, for example, his approach of having a higher bench is a back-saver. My bench is very high and my back doesn’t hurt. Just like Paul. There’s no one way for everybody. Stanley, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, wooden planes, and a host of others may all be a part of one’s journey along the way to what they prefer and enjoy using. The same as workbenches. Paul’s approach is enlightening, and his life inspiring, for anyone on that journey.
I named my son Paul Thomas due to both Paul Sellers and another Paul. He has been more than a teacher of woodworking to me. He is also an exemplary person in many ways although I’ve never met him personally.
Best wishes with the hand-tool working and new hand planes!
Tom -
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