Dovetail grain orientation
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- This topic has 10 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by cragglerock.
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29 October 2016 at 12:23 am #141994
I’m thinking about trying to make a carry tote for the wife’s birthday next month for her gardening, but as it will live in our garage which can be a little exposed to the elements I was thinking of using dovetails instead of housing joints as Paul did in the video.
This will be my first attempt at dovetails and given I still don’t have a bench and vice I thought it would be a good utility project as a first attempt at them.
This leads to my question, the wood I have available is 7×1 par white deal left over from building new doors for the garage. Obviously the ends of the tote have to be higher than the sides, but this means that the grain orientation will not match and the pins will be crosscut into the vertical grain.
As wood is a lot easier to spilt along the grain so I’m wondering if there is a chance that if one on the pins takes a knock if it could break off? Anyone else experienced this or am I assuming incorrectly?
Other than abadoning the idea of using dovetails as I don’t have access to a 20×1 piece and don’t think laminating two of my available pieces to make the ends is a safer option.
Thanks in advance.
29 October 2016 at 5:12 pm #142003I don’t think that dovetails in this way are any safer than housing joints, probably weaker even. When wood swells from humidity, it can even crack stones, so it will be easy to pop off a few dovetails. A housing joint might split too, but this is much less likely, if you don’t make it too close to the bottom. If you don’t trust your glue in a humid environment, you could add screws from the outside or get waterproof glue.
What do you mean by 7×1 and 20×1? Apparently dimensions, but which ones?
Dieter
29 October 2016 at 10:46 pm #142011I once made a small “box” that way (actually it was a wooden 6-pack holder), but I never felt good about the dovetail joints in side grain. I pinned the joints with 1/8″ dowels to feel a bit better about them. I’ll try to attach a picture or two. There is a good reason dovetail joints go from end grain to end grain. Side grain pins or tails are easily broken off. I think Wesley’s suggestion is a good one, joining the ends with the bottom using DTs. You could then put the sides into grooves or rabbets.
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You must be logged in to view attached files.30 October 2016 at 7:22 pm #142038Hi folks,
Thanks for the replies.
@Hugo 7×1 here in Ireland would be the same as 1×7 in the USA.
@Brian & Wess moisture is an issue here, we’ve more rain than we know what to do with, but I was more sort of worried that she would catch the pins on something when in the garden and snap them when the tote was full.
@Matt that’s a nice beer tote, I was thinking of using dimilar reinforcement as you did for my project.I’m thinking of using M&Ts joint for joining the sides to the ends for the handle along with some reinforcement, and glueing and screwing the bottom on.
I’ll leave the dovetails for the cross rails of the pet bed she wants me to make when I get a chance.
31 October 2016 at 11:31 pm #142054Ah, ok. so 7″ width, 1″ thickness? But then you might have enough length to do the tote exactly as designed by Paul Sellers. The sides have the grain horizontal, the ends vertical. But then, this might not be the problem at all… But the original design is very strong, I use it to carry some heavyweight woodsplitting tools (hammer, iron wedges, axe etc.). The thickness of my boards was less than 3/4″ before I flattened them. Might be 1/2″ now.
Dieter
1 November 2016 at 1:02 am #142055Hi Dieter,
Thanks for your reply and yes it’s 7 wide and 1 thick.
That’s a strong endorsement/proof of the original design, I’ll think about it again as it also gives me the opportunity/reason to do the poor man’s router.
Thanks,
Graham
- This reply was modified 7 years, 6 months ago by Dubinmeath.
3 November 2016 at 10:27 pm #142173Dear all,
On pages 84 – 86 of his book “Illustrated Cabinet Making: How to Design and Construct Furniture that Works” (ISBN 978-1-56523-369-0), Mr Bill Hylton recommends that the grain should be oriented in the same direction, so that the parts are joined end to end. The reason is that wood movement (a concern throughout this book) will be in the same for all parts.Complying with Mr Hylton, who is an authority, would require the ends (gables) to be edge jointed in order to make them taller than the sides. Whether that demands anything more advanced than two butt joints is perhaps an open question, as may be the choice of adhesive: water resistant PVA, polyurethane or epoxy, I would think are some alternatives: with polyurethane as the preferred alternative.
All in all, I think WWMC could become even better by including advice and discussion on these, and other, more principal topics.
Best
Sven-Olof4 November 2016 at 5:55 pm #142180Sven-Olof, I think, you just added interesting information! Actually, I consider this tool carrying tote an ingenious design now. The dadoes on the short sides carry the weight, while the dadoes on the long sides keep everything together and twist-free. I cannot explain it logically, but I can also see that there is really no need to attach the bottom to the sides. However, a thin bottom would change everything. Quite interesting to think about the consequences of other changes.
Dieter
PS: Swelling wood won’t matter much on the tote either. Bottom and short sides will swell the same way – wider, and the long sides will become a little higher. Only the broomstick is a potential danger. If it is too tight, it could split the sides.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Hugo Notti.
7 November 2016 at 6:00 pm #142263I have already tried exactly what you’re proposing on the same project, it didn’t work (although we can see Matt managed it beautifully). My pins broke off just on test fitting and I changed my design pretty quickly 🙂
Best regards
Craig
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