old tools, a beginners lament
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- This topic has 13 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 5 months ago by Baldemar Benavidez II.
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5 December 2015 at 10:21 pm #132905
As I begin my woodworking journey I look to all the experts on the best this and that to amass a concensus of opinion on good tools for woodworking. Many have pointed to eBay as one of the best places to find tools at good prices. I initially bought in to the concept and began to try and acquire these tools restore them and put them back to work. Being caught up in the fever and spending an irresponsible amount of time trying to get that Stanley no. whatever, or the spears and Jackson , or a disston this that or another tool I’ve changed my thinking on the value of this recommendation.
My observation is that there are values to be had but generally I have found my best tools at flea markets and garage sales. Moreover the general public is on to old tools and the prices are often driven by the perceived value of needing to have these old tools as evidenced by a lot of the bidding. eBay is often a suckers bet and new woodworkers beware. Example why would you bid on a new Veritas dovetail saw where the starting bid and shipping costs are clearly more than what you would pay an online retailer? Or why would I spend 80 dollars on a 151 spokeshave or 99 dollars for a bit and brace with an odd assortments auger or the 4 1/2 Stanley for. 100 plus dollars?
There are a number of reasons why you may make the purchase but if you have a career and family don’t forget to add the value of your time into the true cost of acquiring and restoring old tools. Admittedly, I succumbed to the fever and enjoyed it until I couldn’t find the deals I was looking for and realized the amount of time I was spending on it and not actually working wood.
In this regard I appreciate what Paul has done to make recommendations on good affordable readily available modern alternatives and really if you just save a bit more you could buy great modern tools for not much more than you would spend on old tools on eBay. There will come a time when old tools become over valued because of the demand. The adage that the best tool is the one you got Is sound advice for the beginner. Another way to look at it is the best tools are the ones you can afford because when you finish the piece no one cares whether you used a Stanley or craftsman plane, narex or crown chisels, or what dovetail saw you used.6 December 2015 at 6:22 am #132907Hi Baldemar. I, too, have been soured by eBay. Actually I have come to hate eBay after losing many auctions due to someone’s program to outbid at the last second or having multiple bidders drive the price up unrealistically to where I wouldn’t buy a tool.
Tool collectors, many of whom resell their tools at a profit, have driven the prices up astronomically. There has been a marked resurgence in hand tool woodworking and while that is a very good thing, it that hasn’t helped with the second-hand tool prices.
I recently bought an old Stanley #4 1/2 from a tool dealer for more than I thought I should have paid, but I really wanted a 4 1/2. The dealer was Patrick Leach (Supertool) and he said it was a good user. While it is a good user, it’ll never be a great smoothing plane like I had hoped. There is a broken piece from the casting at the rear (not consequential), the blade is pitted on the back side, causing the cutting edge to be interrupted when I get to these parts, and the chip breaker (cap iron) is not straight at its leading edge, making it tough to mate perfectly with the blade.
In retrospect, I wish I had bitten the bullet and got a new Lie-Nielsen #4 1/2. I’m very frustrated with the online tool market. I don’t mind putting in the time and effort to refurbish an old tool (and I love using the old tools), but sometimes it’s just not worth it.
6 December 2015 at 3:58 pm #132909I’ve nearly given up on Ebay. You know its bad when used products by Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley are being sold for more than retail. That’s a sure sign of an out of control tool market.
6 December 2015 at 5:50 pm #132912I tried to use EBay when I first started looking for hand tools. I’d find something that looked decent and then see the $50.00 shipping charge, which brought the price close to buying new. I also haunted farm auctions but the antique dealers and collectors would bid up the price to where I wasn’t willing to pay.
For me, it wasn’t worth the time and aggravation to find old tools. I want work wood, not shop for tools. I bit the bullet and mostly bought new from Lee Valley. Now I spend my time in the shop, rather than EBay.
6 December 2015 at 7:04 pm #132914Well. what’s there to say about buying on Ebay? The maxim ‘caveat emptor’, or buyer beware, would seem to be very applicable but it neeedn’t necessarily be so. Ebay could and should take a few simple measures that would clarify or remove a number of ambiguities that the shady or dishonest seller can hide behind.
1. Provide clear pics of the item/s for sale. None of this “Sorry about the pics quality. my 1837 steam phone camera doesn’t work very well”. I often think it’s part of a soft scam where some folk don’t want you to have a clear view in case you see too much. That’s solely my opinion but then I’m a cynic.
2. Items that comprise of a number of component parts must me be stripped down and laid out so that indidual pics can be shown of these separate parts.
3. The more salient parts should be clearly indicated. I.e. in the case of bladed tools, the blade edges should be clearly shown both sides.
4. Do away with Good or Very Condition etc, as some sellers have not got a grasp of the Queen’s English or else items are being sold by blind people. Mind you, some items that I have seen saying they were in good condition, even a blind person could feel the amount of crud on the tool.
5. Bring in a better system of grading quality thereby making returns a tad easier and putting a litle more responsibility on the seller.
6. If selling brand new items then the maximum price should be no more than 5 or 10% higher than the retail average. That would obviate some of these astronomical examples often seen. Not that I can possibly understand how any get sold.
As for buyers, I think the first thing is to find/follow a few auctions of the tool you are looking for and then once bidding has finished, make a note of the prices they went for and then you can form an idea of the average price and in turn determine what you are willing to pay for an equivalent item.
Once you have determined your maximum bid, stick to it. Only in exceptional circumstances go above it. Then trawl through the list of tools on offer and say pick three or four that pique your interest, bookmark them and then make a note of their close of bidding times/dates. If you’re old and dementured you’ll do what I did and forget. I remembered about an hour after close of bidding on a pair of spokeshaves and when I checked what the winning bid was, it was far less than I had been willing to offer. Tuff titty but that’s the way it sometimes goes.
The serious bidding only occurs 10 mins or so before close so I turn up 15 mins to go and put in my maximum bid if the bidding hasn’t already gone past that figure. By putting in your maximum bid, this means when the bidding has been raised by someone else, an increment, which maybe 1 or $5 or whatever, is automatically taken from your maximum bid and placed as the leading bid until such time as it is outbid by someone else. It repeats like that until either close of bidding time or your maximum bid runs dry. Remember, I am an Ebay novice and I daresay there are many forum members out there much more experienced than I and who know better.
To sum up:
Buyer make sure you determine the max you will pay and stick to it.
Also, be clear about the quality of pics on any given item and strategic parts are clearly shown. If not then move on. There will always be another day tomorrow or the next. There is no rush.
Ebay, sort your sites out. You know damn well that you have crooked sellers operating among the majority of decent sellers and it’s for you to deal with them. Sometimes the goose that lays the golden egg gets cooked.6 December 2015 at 7:42 pm #132916Peter, people just don’t seem to understand the concept of “auction price.” It’s an auction, folks, not Walmart. Slow the roll people, you’re spoiling it for everyone.
6 December 2015 at 7:56 pm #132917Forget to ask Matt if you’d considered an iron and cap iron from Veritas is the Stanleys are too pricey or hard tyo come by in NorCal. Here in the UK I’ve just seen new Blades £12.40 which I believe is just under $19. After all Matt, along with a flat sole the meat of the plane is the blade and cap iron. JAT.
6 December 2015 at 9:54 pm #132922@scottchensoda – Yeah Scott, I have thought about a new blade, but haven’t thought about the cap iron – I will think about that. These items would go a long way to making my plane a better worker. Hock Tools sells them for a #4 1/2, but they’re more pricey than what you showed. I may still do it.
p.s., what does JAT mean? (Just A Thought?)
p.p.s., I had seen your screen name (Scott Chensoda) for months before I figured out the joke with it. Got a kick out of that.
6 December 2015 at 11:02 pm #132926Well done, just a thought it was Matt. I was thinking Veritas because they come as a matched pair, sharpened and ready to rock ‘n roll. Anyways, hope you get it sorted as there’s nothing like the sound and feeling as the sole glides over the workpiece resulting in a fine wispy shaving at the end.
As for the name, I get a kick out of it too. When I can find where she’s hidden the damn bottle!
This might be worth you taking a look at Matt. ATB!!
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=42607&cat=1,230,41182
7 December 2015 at 2:42 am #132955I only bought a few from eBay. I have had better luck from some specific used tool dealers. I always love how people will say a “rare stanley” tool and its a no.4, 5, block plane or something they made millions of.
8 December 2015 at 1:29 am #132991Great thread,
I,m convinced some sellers covertly bid up the prices. I’ve had limited success with making offers…then this happened. I made a reasonable offer on a ” vintage 10″ dovetail saw. Great pictures and it looked like it would clean up easy. Buy now for $45 or best offer. I offered $30 expecting a counter at maybe $35 or $40. Crickets…I sent a note as a reminder…still nothing…offer expires and wouldn’t you know it the buy now price goes up to $55 dollars plus shipping. Totally ruined the eBay experienced for me. -
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