22 August 2021 at 1:04 am #725818
I was given the body of a Record 044 without any of the bits. I have an old Marples 040 that I was hoping to use the three irons from in the Record body (I don’t find the 40 very comfortable to use) or maybe in time even make new irons. I am hoping I can whip up the missing parts from old bits and bobs (it won’t be pretty, but it might work). I found old bolts for most of the holes (fence/depth stop), and they seem to be normal m3/m5s (unless my old little bolts are something else) but I haven’t found anything that will fit the threads of the screw that sets the depth of cut.
It looks like a very ‘rough’ thread ype (threads are far apart). Sorry, don’t know exact terms to describe the thread characteristics.
I wondered if anyone knows what kind of thread it is. I am guessing it is not something standard I would find at a hardware store (in the Netherlands), but happy to be told differently.
I could still use the plane without this screw (and it would save me having to grind grooves into the Marples’ blades), but I would still find it nice to have it operable if possible.
Many thanks for any possible help, even if it is just to confirm it is a non-standard. impossible thread type.
Sebastiaan22 August 2021 at 2:00 am #725824
The threads were originally 3/16 Whitworth, with 24 TPI. I think at some point record transitioned to Imperial, so it depends on which age yours is, but in that size it doesn’t make a difference.
Nearly identical is imperial or Unified national thread 10-24, that is, #10 (.190”) 24 threads per inch. You won’t notice the difference.
(3/16” = ..1875”)
It’s a very common size at places that stock UNC or imperial. Thumbscrews of that size are in every hardware store in America.
It’s generally the size for several bolts on Stanley and other record planes, for instance the depth stop and blade screw on a Stanley 78.
3/16 “ =4.8 mm so using an M5 tap might work to reshape the hole threads to metric. It might work for a hole that isn’t too deep. 24 TPI is about 1.058 mm pitch, so you can go several turns before it matters.
If that fails, go to M6.
Don’t bother looking for 3/16” -24 imperial threads. They aren’t made.
Threads are coarse ( rough, as you say) because cast iron doesn’t hold fine threads well.22 August 2021 at 11:55 am #725860
Thanks a lot for that detailed information (yet again) Larry!
Plane threads have confused me before (and reading online, many others too I think). In the past, I have struggled to find screws/bolts for a stanley 78 that came without a fence or depth stop. Strangely I found that the fence hole in the body would take an M thread (forget which one now, m6?), but the depth stop body hole wouldn’t, nor would the body hole for the lever cap… I suppose someone could have retabbed the fence hole in the past..
On the 44, I looked a little closer after your information.
I did retab the depth stop hole with an m5 tab and that worked. That hole was the reason the previous owner gifted it to me. It hadn’t taken the original thumb screw and they got a new body from the person they bought it from.
The body holes for the fence rods ‘almost’ take m6s. They go in quite a way, a bit loosely initially but then tight but not all the way through. I first thought they originally might have been m6s with the bottom few threads ground away (that was going to be my solution), but looking at photos online, that doesn’t seem to be the case, so I don’t know what they are (1/4 BSW or UNC? or would that be too large to almost take an m6?).
The screw that holds the blade to the body sideways takes the same thread as the screw that holds the lever cap to my stanley 78 body (3/16 or 10-24 then probably, going on what you said). As an aside, I saw from photos online that not all 44 versions have that sideway screw. Tried to look for dating on that feature, but haven’t found it so far.
The blade depth adjustment screw hole is slightly bigger than the sideway screw hole (an m5 fits in half a turn, the 78 screw a few turns but then jams). I would still say that judging by eye (!) the thread of this hole looks a bit coarser that the other holes. I attached a photo of – supposedly – this screw that I found online, and to me it also looks coarse, but that might just be me. I can’t redrill/retab this one as the handle is in the way.
PS I found a post on another forum that said Record went to metric after Unified and Whitworth on their ploughs. Not sure if that is accurate though.22 August 2021 at 8:31 pm #725901
I’ve hear they went metic also, but I thought that was a fable. ( the modern Sweetheart planes are metric)
Another screw size Stanley and copy cat Record used is 3/16 -20 or 10 -20 Or 7/32 – 20 TPi whitworth ( I’ve seen all mentioned) the small screw on the larger plane totes for instance. Record may have switched.
If you have Stanley plane see if that fits.
But then you have to go to EBay or find a friend who has a metal lathe. Once or twice a year I go to a friends house and use his lathe to make screws and such.
I miraculously did find some Whitworth at a chain of stores called Fasteners Inc. But I think they stopped carrying it.
BSW doesn’t have a 24 TPI size. Their screws in that range are 26 TPI.
1/20” is about 1.27 mm pitch. I know 1.25 mm screws are made in 5 mm and 6 mm size, and again, for a couple turns that might work.
With machining slop such things are possible. I have an old Delta lunchbox planer I needed screws for, and figuring it was UNC I bought screws and they fit.
I later found out the planer was made in Taiwan and was all metric!
So some sizes can be a direct swap almost. You just have to try..
I fortunately have a local store that is very well stocked in Metric and UNC, I take tools to the store and just browse the bins to see what works.22 August 2021 at 11:13 pm #725920
Thanks again Larry!
The person who gifted the plane to me checked his screws and both the side tightening screw and cut adjuster were the same thread (3/16 he thought), so it would be weird if Record used two different threads for both holes on my plane body. Maybe the threads were damaged. I’ll keep a look out for 3/16 taps on ebay to see if I can repair it after all (no room for a drill, but a tap might just fit). Hammer adjustments until then…
My local shop also has some UNC I think, so will try to get a 10-24 and see if anything fits those ‘almost m6’ holes.
I don’t have the larger planes with small screws on the totes, so can’t check for the 20 tpi option. Nice to make your own specialty screws!
Sebastiaan23 August 2021 at 2:03 am #725937
My guess is somebody tried to force the wrong size thread in the hole. I should have mentioned that electrical stuff uses a different thread series than most unc applications. You should browse the electrical section of your hardware store for odd sizes.
If you get a tap to repair threads, get what is called a bottoming tap. They aren’t tapered so you can clean up threads all the way down a hole.
Or you can get a small thread repair file. Each file will have several thread pitches on it. My hardware store carries UNC, UNF, and Metric sizes.
They will repair bolt threads as well.
But you can make a cleaning tap out of a hardened bolt. Get a grade 5 or grade 8 bolt and use a dremel tool to grind a couple vertical slots. It’s an old shade tree mechanic trick.
Cast iron is pretty soft. I’ve even used a dental pick to clean up small threads. Just needs patience.
For years I’ve had an eye out for adjustable dies, that would make bolts of different diameters with the same pitch. A century and a half ago they were common, but I think they all wore out. That’s why you see some trades use different diameter screws all with the same pitch. Electricians use 6-32, 8-32, and 10-32, so with one adjustable die amd a tapered tap you could do all the sizes you needed. Whitworth had a similar series. They can mount a switch, but the cover on it and close the box up with a couple tools.
Ceiling fan boxes are 10-24 because they hold more weight, and so you can’t fasten a fan to a box that isn’t rated to hold the weight., I have no idea what they do in metric countries, but you might be surprised at grandfathered sizes just like camera mounts are still 1/4-20 everywhere.
Gas threads follow a similar pattern.23 August 2021 at 2:31 pm #725977
Thanks for those last tips. I was hoping that in this case a normal tap would do the trick because the hole for the depth adjustments is open at the bottom (it ends in the space for the screw that holds the blade to the side (and I imagined a bottoming tap would be harder to find).
I very much like the trick to use a hardened bolt and dremel tool. From what you said, I imagine that a 10-24 bolt might work, even if it is a 3/16 – 24 hole. Might be better even, I guess, if all I can buy to replace the orignal screws are 10-24 threads anyway.
I remember seeing an episode of the woodwright shop (on the PBS website) in which Roy’s blacksmith friend made threads by hand. I can’t remember in detail but I think it was similar to what you describe in using an adjustable die. Come to think of it I think I’ve seen some more modern adjustable dies on the local ‘ebay’ (one life one: https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/antiek-en-kunst/antiek-gereedschap-en-instrumenten/m1737807843-compleet-antieke-draadsnijmachine-oster-mfg-co-cleveland-in.html?previousPage=lr) and wondered about those. They seemed like intriguing tools (if these are what you mean), but not really what I would need or use.
Whenever I need a strange bolt or screw I dive into all the threading info, but always end up a bit dazzled.
I’ll let you know how get on with my plane (but could be a while – these projects usually progress in cycles of activity and inactivity…)
Sebastiaan8 September 2021 at 10:00 pm #728007
Just thought to give a quick update. I got some old Whitworth taps and this plane baffles me: the screw that holds the blade laterally to the body seems to be a 3/16 (great fit with the tap), but the 3/16 tap is too small for the depth adjustment screw hole (goes in without turning), while the 7/32 won’t go in (too big)… something in between?? Still think those threads look coarse by eye. If 3/16 BSW is too small, I guess it can’t be 3/16-20, right?
Also, the holes for the fence rods don’t look like they’re Whitworth. Nothing fits. M6 is still the closest, but maybe those are UNC. Haven’t tested that yet.
That just as an incomplete update.
Sebastiaan10 December 2021 at 8:40 pm #740260
Just finished making most of the replacement parts and thought to share a photo to say thanks for your replies. I got those 3/16 UNC hex bolt on Aliexpress as my local shop didn’t carry the smaller UNC bolts (same for the thumbscrews – M6). As the Marples 040 cutters don’t have the grooves for depth adjustment, I still have to see if I want to make new cutters or just tap adjust the depth. I did already make that adjuster screw by threading a bit of metal and screwing it onto that 3/16 adjuster screw (I obviously take it out when using the plane – just there for the photo).
Sebastiaan10 December 2021 at 8:45 pm #740265
Just finished making most of the replacement parts and thought to share a photo to say thanks for your replies. I got those 3/16 UNC hex bolt on Aliexpress as my local shop didn’t carry the smaller UNC bolts (same for the thumbscrews on the skate – M6). As the Marples 040 cutters don’t have the grooves for depth adjustment, I still have to see if I want to make new cutters – never done that, seems like quite a bit of work with those sides of plough plane blades also having a small angle – or just tap adjust the depth with my Marples cutters. I did already make that adjuster screw by threading a bit of metal and screwing it onto that 3/16 adjuster screw (I obviously take it out when using the plane – just there for the photo). Plane works fine it seems.
Sebastiaan14 December 2021 at 1:01 am #740661
Nice work. Love the fence and the lever cap you made. I’d just use the tap method for adjustment if that’s the cutters you have. It’s really not any more dificult, once you’ve had a little practice.4 January 2022 at 10:21 pm #743477
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.