Sharpening
Welcome! / Forums / General Woodworking Discussions / Tools and Tool Maintenance/Restoration / Sharpening
- This topic has 50 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 12 months ago by toolnut.
-
AuthorPosts
-
I bought an Axminster 400/1200 stone to tide me over until I can get some ezelap.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-rider-double-sided-diamond-bench-stone-951777
Just spent altogether about 15 to 20 minutes sharpening my chisel and it’s now not as sharp as it was when I first bought it.
I’ve followed the instructions – they’re not that complex – so either I’m doing something wrong or the Axminster stone isn’t up to the task.
As an aside, I’m looking to buy a cheaper set of chisels than my Ashley Isles until I know what I’m doing, so I was going to buy these Faithfull ones:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faithfull-Blue-Chisel-Plastic-Case/dp/B0001IWNKQ
Any recommendation on a nice cheap chisel set I could buy (in the uk)?
Regarding sharpness, do you have a strop? A strop with appropriate compound after the 1000 grit plate will likely help substantially. Also, are you sure you are getting the bur off?
Speed will come with time. For the bevel (not the back), you could put some coarse paper on something flat to speed up the heavy work on the heel. Eventually, you’ll want something coarse that is more durable, but it’s something you can do quickly.
No, I haven’t got a strop yet; I’ll be looking to make one this week.
I can’t say I see a bur at all. Perhaps not sharp enough. I do pull the back across the Axminster stone after working on the bevel, and if I don’t, there’s this extremely fine line of grittiness that comes off the edge. I don’t think it’s the bur though, I think it’s just particle build up from the sharpening.
One other thing I’ve noticed, this doesn’t’ happen all the time, but now and then I see minute little dinks in the edge of the chisel – which means I have to work them out. It all adds to the over 90 minutes I’ve worked on them today.
It’s all pointing to the stone I have just not being up to it – I think. I hope. I don’t mind paying for some ezelap if it will work for me. I’ll try the strop first though, as you suggested. Much cheaper at least 😀
You can feel a burr on the edge, and can often see it too. It feels like a very small ridge if you carefully rub your finger along the back of the blade. Don’t slice your fingers! If you don’t feel a burr, you probably haven’t adequately sharpened the very edge [i,e, the lead cutting edge) of your iron. The burr often. Rolls from one side of the iron to the other if it does not come off so take care to inspect your iron while you are sharpening/stropping to make sure you have removed it.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by David B.
Nearly any polishing compound on a relatively flat surface can be used as temporary poor mans strop (tried out metal polish on the former bottom of a mandarine box) – even rough card board.
For budget chisels I’d go for the Narex chisels. I’m very satisfied with mine.
E.
Thanks all for the advice.
I was sharpening the chisels for over 90mins today. I’m pretty sure I’m doing it right. The recommended 30-degree angle might be a little off, but not so much as to cause them to be blunt the way they are.
Are the chisels I’m using known as cabinet maker’s, bevel edged, paring chisels?
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Mark68.
- This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Mark68.
Hi Mark,
In my opinion, I think you are right when you say maybe the axminster stone isn’t up to the task – not because there is anything wrong with the stone, but even when used correctly it is simply to course to get a razor edge. Although if you are doing it right it shouldn’t be more blunt than a new chisel that hasn’t yet been honed.
This type of stone is also very course when new, I would lap the sole of a plane on it for a while to wear it in a bit.
Once you have raised a burr with the fine side of the stone, there is nothing more that can be done with that particular stone to achieve sharpness.
Personally I would not buy a set of cheaper chisels but instead spend the money on a finer stone to use in between the 1000 grit and a strop, even stropping directly after using the axminster stone would take a great deal of stropping to remove the deep scratches it has left. The fine (red) side of a Norton India stone would be a good choice – a fairly cheap yet very effective stone that I think not nearly enough people are aware of nowadays.
But the real sharpness can only be achieved by finishing the process with a superfine Waterstone or strop, be careful not to round the edge over when stropping and also bear in mind that the chisel must be initialised because a perfect mirror finish on the back of the cutting edge is equally as important as the bevel side.
Just keep practising and it wont be long until you are able to raise the burr and strop in under a couple of minutes. Good luck mateThank you for the reply Jonathan
I tend to agree that it’s probably a mixture of the stone I’m using plus the fact I’ve never sharpened before. I am going to save a little and buy 250, 600, and 1200 grit ezelap stones. Today I am going to attempt to get some leather and fashion a strop. That should help.
2 July 2018 at 12:49 pm #549044@mark68 When I first started sharpening tools, I was really hung up on the angle of sharpening. What I should have been hung up on was obtaining that bur on the back edge. That is the “first” key to razor sharpness. If you’re never getting to that point, you may need a more coarse stone to start with. I have 4 diamond plates that I use and my most coarse plate is seldom used – except when I don’t readily obtain a bur within 20 strokes on my less coarse plate. I “could” get there eventually, but it may take a while. Get the bur, then move down to the finer grits. After I get a bur, it is normally only 15 or 20 strokes on each successive grit – ending with super fine. On my super fine, after I’ve hit my last stroke, I flip the blade (or chisel) over to the back and take a few gentle strokes sideways to gently remove the bur. I should point out that before you do any of this you need to make sure the back of the blade/chisel is flat. Paul has videos on that too.
After I’ve done this (maybe 5 minutes of time per blade to this point) – I will strop the blade about 40-50 times on the bevel side and then usually 5-10 times on the back. At this stage – it is razor sharp.
It shouldn’t take 90 minutes and, given the reviews of those diamond plates, I’m concerned that there is very little abrasive on the plates. They may be fine, but the reviews are concerning.
This may be a good time to try sandpaper. You could use 220 for coarse, 600 for fine and 1200 for superfine. Get some spray adhesive at the art store to glue the paper to something flat. You could use a machine table if you have one or a piece of tile. Let me suggest that you absolutely, positively stay away from the back of the chisel. Let it be. I’ve had paper dub the corners making it horrifically hard to flatten later. So, for now, just use the paper on the bevel. For the back, just use the finest side of your current diamond plate followed by the strop you’re about to make. Since you will only be using the sandpaper on the bevel, it really doesn’t matter how flat the surface is that you glue it to. Stick it on a hunk of ply or scrap you’ve planed somewhat flat.
This should be fairly cheap and you’ll know absolutely that you have abrasive. If you don’t get sharp, you’ll know it’s your method. Long term, paper is expensive, but short term I think it may help you. A couple final things: First, there are various grit systems, so poke around with google to find suitable grits in the grit system you find at your store. Second, just the barest minimum waft of spray adhesive is enough. That way, you can pull the paper up and put down new. Which brings us to #3, especially when learning, don’t be surprised if you gouge big hunks out of that paper. When you are hogging material off grinding and when you are honing but are not quite at the edge, it all goes smoothly, but when the honing or grinding reaches the edge, there is a tendency for the edge to try to dig into the abrasive. You can feel it (a bit of a catch or stick sort of feel) and hear it (a higher, sibilant scratchy sound). There’s a tendency, at least for me, to catch if I’m not paying attention or being ham fisted. On a diamond plate, you sort of catch and flop over but on paper you’ll likely tear the paper. On water stones, you can score the surface or even take out a divot.
As soon as you have that scratchy sound / feel, you are starting to raise a burr and only need half a dozen strokes, maybe a dozen on the medium grit. Sometimes, you just need a few strokes. When you learn to feel it and hear it, you can get it on a single draw stroke, which is just enough to fold the burr over to the other side, so you can flop back and forth to refine the burr until it is off. That’s for later after you get more confidence and start to recognize how things feel.
Just remembered I have a grit chart here.
DMT X-coarse is around sandpaper grit 220 (US/CAMA) or P220 (Europe)
DMT coarse is around sandpaper grit 240 (US/CAMA) or P280 (Europe)
DMT fine is around sandpaper grit 360-400 (US/CAMA) or P600 (Europe)
DMT extra-fine is around sandpaper grit 1000 (US/CAMA) or P2000-P2500 (Europe)I think you’d do fine with P220, P600, and P2000 as your coarse/fine/super-fine and then go to the strop you’re about to make.
By the way, and this is important, you said you have AI chisels. DO NOT FLATTEN THE BACKS. They come with a hollow ground into them. You will never need to see it be shiny except at the very tip of the back. I asked AI about this and what you do is to put the entire length of the chisel onto the abrasive. Because of the bow, you will only make contact at the tip and up near the bolster. I guess I aim for roughly 1cm below the bolster. I move the chisel in a short stabbing motion along the length of the blade. This will polish the tip of the back or, for routine sharpening, will knock the burr over.
Thank you for the advice, I appreciate it.
I’m going to buy some sandpaper and follow your instructions. As you say, at least then, I’ll know if it doesn’t work, it has to be my method.
Thanks again.
A few questions, you say not to do the back of the chisel but then you say to do the back on the strop. Do you mean don’t do the back on the sandpaper?
When you say flatten the backs, do you mean something other than working them on the stone I have (because that’s what I’ve done for one of them)?
For the Ashley Iles (AI) chisels with the hollowed (bowed) backs, if I were in your position I would do the following. For the initial setup, I’d register the entire back of the chisel on the abrasive. Make short stabbing movements to remove the grinding marks at the tip and progress up in grits until the tip is polished. You’ll only have 1/16″ to 1/8″ of the tip polished and the rest will still have grinding marks in it. Use gentle pressure. You can likely use your 1000 grit diamond plate for this. It should only take a couple minutes. If not, then I’d start on the P600 paper and then the P2000, but they must be adhered to something reasonably flat. Don’t worry about perfection. There may still be a few scratches at the tip, but they will go away over time as you sharpen. Yes, you can go from the P2000 to the strop. On the strop, I register the entire blade at an angle to the right and then draw sideways to the left with the blade skewed to do the back. I’m left handed, you may need the other direction. So, for the AI back prep, try your finest abrasive first. If it’s not good enough in a few minutes, go coarser and work your way back up, finishing on the strop.
For routine sharpening of the AI, work the bevel. I won’t go through all the details. This will raise a burr that you will feel on the back side. For me, I then put the chisel on my finest abrasive, registered as if dressing the back and take just a few stabbing strokes. This folds the burr back over to the bevel. Paul would do a single pull, but that doesn’t work for me. There are two philosophies at this point and you must choose. Paul would go to the strop now to polish the bevel, remove the burr, and work the back. The other option is to take a few strokes on the bevel on your finest abrasive to push the burr to the back again. You flip back and forth a few times on your finest abrasive until the burr falls off and then go to the strop. Either way, you’ll work the bevel and the back on the strop. For the AI, you’ll always register as much of the back on the abrasive or strop as possible. It saves you time and protects the hollow.
If you don’t have a strop and only have P2000 paper, you’ll still get a sharp edge that will do a lot of good work. When you add the strop, you’ll get to a further level of polish. Some people bring their chisel backs to a super high polish and then never touch them again. I don’t do that. I feel I can re-establish a suitable level of polish on the strop and feel that working the burr back and forth works best for me.
This is a lot of words, but what I’m trying to describe is actually simple and fast. For non-AI chisels, I do things completely differently and do not use the stabbing motion.
The photo is a new chisel. You can see only the tip is polished. It needs some more effort but is doing good work already. The other photo shows the back registered on a stone. Again, non-AI chisels would be done differently.
There are a zillion ways to do this. Pick one and make it work. What I’ve described is 98% Paul’s way, modified for the AI.
Attachments:
You must be logged in to view attached files.Judging from what Ed said about the reviews, I strongly suspect that these stones are poorly manufactured with little consistency, I was using one a few years back and encountered the opposite – the stone was far from fine even after a lot of use, in my opinion it was to abrasive for a fine stone.
I think the sandpaper is good advice, at least then you will know weather your technique is correct or not,
This video will help you understand about the back of the chisel,
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.