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A tenoned mitre is a strong corner joint alternative to a mitre that excels for picture or mirror frames and the like. Paul’s technique for cutting a tenoned mitre uses the router to guarantee accuracy and gives nice crisp joint lines.
Am I missing something, or is this the same as “Mitred Bridle joint” ?
I agree with you Tom, it is the same joint but with the added extra of fitting and correcting some small discrepancies.
Looks like it Tom. Two views I guess.
Precisely what I was thinking….I’m sure I’ve seen this before
Sorry about the confusion everyone. We did indeed make a previous version but decided to re-do it without remembering we had already released the previous version. We think the updated version is better and are glad you found the joint correction useful.
Sorry about the spam as well. There has been an increase of people trying to spam the site. We are working daily to try and eliminate it, so you should see it decrease and disappear… I hope.
All the best,
Phil and the Woodworking Masterclasses Team
Great stuff as always 🙂
could you pin it as well with a dowel or would that be overkill?
I’m sure you could but it’s not particularly necessary for most uses.
Hmm, fitting a single corner is one thing, but if one were making a four-sided frame, then any adjustments in final fitting of any of the corners might result in a frame that is out of square. How can that be resolved?
If you’re fitting because you left to much on, like Paul left to much on the inside of the mortise, you wouldn’t run into problems because you end up where you wanted to be.
If you have to fit further you’d have to make the exact same adjustment on the opposing piece (take the two pieces together and copy the knife knik of the fitted joint onto the other piece, then adjust the other piece to match). Of course that only works if you have some leeway in the end size of the frame because it’ll end up square but slightly smaller (if you only have to have an exact outside size you could oversize it slightly from the beginning and plane it down to it’s final size).
Otherwise, apart from doing some very clever filling of gaps maybe you’ll probably end up having to redo it completely. Mitres are pretty unforgiving, and adding the complexity of a tenon only makes it more so…
Having a very good square with a long area to position 45 degree angles on, like the one Paul is using, really helps as well. I never got the angle of mitres right until I bought the same one.
I don’t think Paul’s “mistake” resulted alteration of dimensions.
I think the “error” came from not taking enough off, so that would mean that taking those shoulders down to where they’re supposed to be wouldn’t negatively affect this joint’s fit with the other 3 corners.
I’d like to see a four corner fit up also. This is a lovely joint. I’m musing about where one would give up a bit of fit and the only place I can think of is the back shoulder. Loved the finessing… one wonders how Paul managed to cut a crown on that shoulder 🙂 but nevertheless the corrective actions and patience are good tips.
Really liked the gauge jig that helps ensure the size of the mortise. The router then ensures the size of the tenon. Takes some of the mystery out of the complexity of this joint. I also enjoyed the final fitting and how Paul stepped through how he determined what he had to fix to get the tight fit all around. Well done all around. Thanks.
Dear WWMC team:
Thank you for this video/lesson.
Although the similarities, in my opinion this new version is quite more helpful because all the extra features about the “finesse” bits – in other words how to recover from mistakes.
And all the small details also look more clear in this version.
Cheers to you all
And wishes of plenty inspiration for upcoming videos and projects!
Stunningly beautiful work! Your teaching method is also outstanding! And the videography is something to behold along with the sound quality. All of this comes together with great results as in all your work. Thanks for doing all you do for the people, bringing us all wonderful techniques to learn.
Its very helpful to see how you’ve traced the ‘error’. You might not know how you did it, but I’m glad you did it so we could learn how to fix these kind of things.
Thanks for again a wonderful video!
When you are cutting the mortise, could you leave a 1/4″ section in the middle allowing you to use the jig while sizing the inner walls without needing to use the wedge to keep the joint from collapsing? This small section could then be cut out after the jig was used, and then trimmed to dimension as a final step.
I think that unless you have a very straight vise and place everything well you’d probably end up twisting the mortise walls around that middle section a bit (personally I’ve yet to see a vise that is completely straight). The wedge supports nearly the entire mortise wall and would prevent that. That’s probably why Paul put it in so high at first and then gradually moves it down.
Well done. That mortise guide sure comes in handy.
Wonderful to watch the correction steps at the end. You may be slightly disappointed to have to make them, but to all of us out here, that is by far the most valuable and fascinating part of the lesson.
Please make more mistakes for us in future videos!
Paul and team, great video. Thank you for all you do.
Paul & team :
If you put your saw right to the jig, and your saw has very little set, could you saw directly to your line, and get the joint right from the saw ?
You could use a couple of magnets inside the similar jig to hold the saw in place, however the jig would have to be two different sizes—one for the tenon and one for the mortise to account for the saw kerf—any saw kerf.
Hello Benoît, I imagine getting a clean sawcut that stays vertical would be very difficult without the back hitting the guide. You are of course very welcome to experiment and let us know, but it may be adding unnecessary complexity.
Thanks to you Paul and to your great videography team. Wonderful video. I really like the finesse parts as they show how to correct those small and detailed errors we are likely to encounter in cutting this joint.
Enjoyed this. There are some big frames I’ve wanted to make but feared that the miter joints would not hold over time or break apart if the frame was ever dropped. This solves the problem.
Paul, I’ve been using my routers as gauges as well after seeing you do it in other videos (also, the only combination gauge I’ve bought so far I sent back b/c I didn’t find it satisfactory, hope to get a good one someday). One thing I started doing when I can, i.e. when the distance isn’t longer than my plane blade, is have the blade mark the farthest side of the mortise from the face I’m registering the router against. This is so that the bevel of the blade is towards the waste wood of the mortise hole. I noticed you didn’t do that, but instead had the bevel towards the good wood outside of the mortise hole. Then again for the tenon I have the blade mark the line nearest to the registering face, as that’s where the waste wood is. For me, still very much a beginner, I felt I was able to achieve cleaner lines this way in the finished joint. But, it’s quite possible that’s only because I’m still too deficient in other aspects of making the joint. The only reason I thought about this when marking a mortise one day is because I started thinking of all the videos I saw you teaching your knifewall and its importance. I’d love to hear your thoughts on when it’s okay to not worry about the bevel being on the waste-wood side of a joint line. Thanks again for another fantastic video, I’ve learned so much from your videos and it’s exciting as I watch my skills grow.
The bevel only presses the wood fibres down, so don’t worry much about if it’s being on a good or waste side of the joinery. Only time to pay closer attention is when cutting across the grain.
Re: fixing the “error”: Paul used chisels, could this also be an application for shoulder planes? (please say yes :- )
Any chisel, including shoulder plane will work. I know brave men who even use their saw sandwiched in between imperfect joinery to make the adjustment.
Is it possible to make a picture frame with this joint? It feels like it would be difficult to get the distance correct with a recess for the glass/picture.
You certainly can. You have to use definitive knife walls to mark the internal corners across both pieces and pay particular attention when rebating for the glass. Certainly possible though.
Paul, You showed how there is some latitude when assembling the joint so that you need to watch both directions to get everything to close up. My question is, if you are making up a four-sided frame, how do you clamp? It seems like clamp pressure could cause each corner to slide out of place. Do you just tighten up progressively around the four corners and tap things back into place as you go?
|Paul is conspicuously absent????
Hi Ed, it is indeed a matter of applying the clamps evenly with two widthways and two lengthways, tapping with a hammer or using hand pressure to align them. When you have four corner joints of that size, it provides quite a bit of friction.
Jim, I tend to answer the questions on WWMC consulting him where necessary with him commenting personally when we feel that will be of particular benefit. We aren’t online over the weekends. Paul is generally very busy with prototyping and developing projects, so we try and minimise his time directly answering questions on the computer in order to progress things as effectively as possible.
Thanks, @filadams. When I say, “Paul,….” it really means, “You, lot,…,” but seems a bit politer. I appreciate the time the team puts into answering our questions. It makes a big difference in what we all get out of the presentations.
Thanks Ed, thought it worth answering you in more detail as we haven’t necessarily outlined it clearly. We appreciate your questions too. Helps fill in detail and address issues that get missed.
Thanks for the video, like a few others I thought the corrective actions were really useful.
Looks like spammers have gotten loose..
Sorry about that, will get rid of them right away.
Thank you, Paul. I really appreciate these technique videos. There is something about the way you explain your thought process in finessing the joint that really helps things make sense.
“and now i’m happy”
so am I! thank you, Paul.
Great lesson, beautiful joint!
I especially enjoyed the section about correcting errors.
Very nice. Here’s a possibly correllary question. My wife wants a clock with the symbols from the Elements chart (H, He, Li, Be, B, C, etc). I found one but it’s too big for a regular square frame. So I’m thinking of making an 8-sided frame. Can this tenoned miter be used for this? Obviously it can’t be done with 45-degree cuts. Any knowledge provided would be gratefully accepted.
I asked your question to Paul and he said yes it would work, you just have to work out the angles. That is where most early woodworking would have used a joint like that.
I would like to use a joint like this for a frame that I will be shaping. I am thinking that because of the shape I may need to make the tenon thinner. I would think that this would be fine but since I have no idea what I am doing maybe someone here could advise me on what I should do.
The jig for paring down the mortises accurately should or could be made wide enough so that it could be clamped to the timber below the mortise. That way you would not have the problem of the mortise compressing.
Ι need to make some fly-screen doors (two doors to cover a 2.5m square opening). This looks like the ideal joint for strength, with a mortised support half way up. Or am I missing something?
It would be better not to have the mitred joint and just to have the mortise and tenon joint.
I used this in my personal shed build (you can see this in my vlog 014 on YouTube).
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