Record 050 Question

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  • #714004
    Patrick Lundrigan
    Participant

    Is the depth stop supposed to be parallel to the skate? Mine is sort of at an angle, higher at the front.

    #714102
    YrHenSaer
    Participant

    Yes.

    It needs to be parallel. If it’s an angle to the base of the skate it will be difficult to set and maintain the correct depth and the edges may mark the work when it comes down into contact.

    The sole of the depth-stop is usually a press-fit into the retaining rod. If it is at an angle, it may have has a knock at some time. You can try bending it back to shape, carefully checking the distance at both ends to the skate of the plane.

    #714112
    Patrick Lundrigan
    Participant

    I tried it with other depth stops, with no change. It looks like the angle of the hole is not perpendicular — which made me wonder if it was by design or accident.
    It does make depth setting tricky. a little bit of trial and error.

    #714186
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    Show us some pictures.

    #714246
    YrHenSaer
    Participant

    With the dedicated depth-stop in place, the whole thing should be square and even so that the depth stop plate is exactly in line with the sole……. simple as that, I’m afraid.

    This means that the retaining hole needs to be at right angles to the horizontal line of the sole. When fully retracted, the body of the depth stop should be a linear and snug fit in the meeting recess where the skate section joins the body-casting. It is usual to fit the stop with the longer sole-section trailing behind and the short section to the front, though this is a matter of choice – it will work either way round and depends very much on the wight distribution of your hands.

    From my own Record 050, the hole diameter is 7/32 inch (5.56 mm), a drill or rod of metal of this diameter placed in the hole and protruding below the sole will allow you to see and measure its squareness in both directions. With both the sole sections fitted and spaced a couple of inches apart, you can check for squareness across both sections of the sole this way.

    Record’s quality control when these planes were made was usually very good – it’s worth finding out what the problem is.

    Also, there is another hole for a depth stop on the opposite side of the moving skate, by the handle near the front, intended to accept a longer and slightly different depth stop. It is worth checking that this one is true as well. It is the same size as the normal stop.

    This one was for housing a levelling-stop used in conjunction with a beading iron, specifically when making T&G boards that required a bead on the front edge behind the tongue. In reality, they were rarely used and are frequently missing…………..

    #714312
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    Also, there is another hole for a depth stop on the opposite side of the moving skate, by the handle near the front, intended to accept a longer and slightly different depth stop. It is worth checking that this one is true as well. It is the same size as the normal stop.

    To be clear.
    The stop that fits in the hole on the moving skate is NOT A DEPTH STOP. It never controls depth of cut.
    In the attached picture from the Stanley manual, you will see it ( part “G” ) is set so the small rebate clips onto the moving skate. The part that protrudes below the skate acts as a small fence . (Ok, it does control depth of cut. The cutter will stop cutting when this piece hits the tongue you have already made. But it isn’t adjusted)

    That fence is to be used ONLY with beading cutters when you want to put a bead next to a tongue . It is used instead of the regular fence. When you use that fence you remove the regular fence “D” . It does nothing in that operation..

    The only depth stop on the plane is labeled part “F” in the diagram. It is only used with the hole on the right side of the plane. And That part is not used when you are cutting tongues with the match cutter. The chip deflector goes in its place ONLY WITH THAT CUTTER.. the match cutter has its own depth stop.

    If what you think is a depth stop looks like the chip deflector “H” you are using the wrong part. That’s why I wanted you to post a picture.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by Larry Geib.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by Larry Geib.
    #714579
    Patrick Lundrigan
    Participant

    here are some pictures. One of depth stop on plane, the other the depth stop lined up with a small square. So the post is slightly off perpendicular, but not so much I think to throw the stop out of alignment.

    #714632
    YrHenSaer
    Participant

    Difficult to say if it’s the one, the other or both, so it is down to a process of elimination.

    First, from your picture, the post of the stop is slightly out. Not unusual, that plane is at least 50 or 60 years old and sometimes they get a knock. It should, with a very careful amount of force, be possible to ease the whole thing back into shape. I’m saying this as there is probably enough malleability in that metal to support that amount of adjustment. Check it first to make sure,. Alternatively, a spare may be obtained, but can be scarce, depending where you are located.

    Second, eliminate the plane body. Record’s production quality was usually very good, so I would be surprised if it is this…… but not impossible. So, check the alignment of the socket in the plane’s base as I outlined earlier. A drill or straight rod of the correct diameter fitted and pointing upwards with the plane inverted, will allow a square to check the alignment both longitudinally along the sole plate and, perhaps less importantly, laterally across the two skates.
    If this latter part is out of true, it leaves two alternatives…… put up with it or sell it on with the caveat that the hole is out of true.

    Good luck. I hope that it’s just a matter of teasing the depth stop back into line. In any case, please let us know the outcome.

    #714738
    Patrick Lundrigan
    Participant

    More photos. Took a while to find the right size drill bit. 🙂
    Looks way off in bothe directions.

    I rechecked. Looks like the depth stop is slightly off perpendicular, but not enough for the skew. the beading stop is perpendicular, and it shows skew in the plane once tightened.
    While loose, the depth stop is almost in line, but once tightened, it goes out of perpendicular.

    Do You think there’s any sort of modification to the set screw or shaft that could eliminate the slop?

    Thanks

    #714779
    YrHenSaer
    Participant

    Sad to say, from the pictures, I think that you’re right about the machining error.
    Privately I was hoping that the alignment issue was confined solely to the depth stop.

    Personally, I’ve not seen a Record 050 that is not machined correctly like this and it is a first for me.

    What to do?
    I suppose that the options are:
    1 – Nothing….. sell it on or replace it.
    2 – Find a machinist who’ll fill in the hole and re-drill it out correctly. This will probably be expensive.
    3 – Gently ease the depth stop into line so that it is planar with the sole and use it this way. If everything else on the plane is in line, at least you’ll have a working tool. (Having said that, a lot of users don’t always bother with a depth stop. In reality, groove depths are seldom critical)

    It would be interesting to see if the other hole for the T&G guide on the moving section of the body is correct – this is easy to spot. In use, the guide will only fit in one direction and it MUST be a correct fit. There is a groove down one side and when it is fully in place this groove should sit entirely over and cover the bottom edge of the moving skate. If you put a bead cutter in at this point you’ll see that the web on the left edge of the cutter is totally obscured; the edge of the guide now rides on the side of the T&G. Sometimes it needs a little shove to locate, but if this hole is a hair out it won’t fit correctly.
    However if you never make T&G boards with a decorative bead, this is academic. The number of Record 050 planes out there with this bit missing…. proves that point!

    Good luck.

    #714790
    Colin Scowen
    Participant

    Or you could get a piece of wood (or aluminium box profile) that is the depth you want, and screw it to the plane using the depth guide rod hole for the mounting screw. (Similar to putting a longer wooden straight edge on a power router side fence.) I don’t have one of these, so I am not sure about clearance and space availability etc, so this may not work.

    Colin, Czech Rep.

    #714881
    Patrick Lundrigan
    Participant

    The T&G guide was in alignment on the fence.
    I’d rather not sell as I got it from a dealer and it included the box and (more importantly, all the cutters and pieces). I also got a set of short arms for it, and I like the cutter adjustment, much better than the Stanley 50.
    The other alternative is to try to find a body without any other parts.
    Or see if the dealer has any other 050 for sale.
    Rig up a alternate depth stop.
    Or just use my Stanley 45 or 46, although I like the smallet plane.

    This is a latter vintage model. Came with the cutters in a plastic envelope instead of the box.

    #714946
    YrHenSaer
    Participant

    Shame, despite all the quality issues, you must have a one-off there!
    …… in comparison, the Record 050 is a better plane than the Stanley 50, but that’s a matter of personal opinion.

    A reputable dealer ought to take it back……. perhaps.
    But it is, after all, at least 50 years old, maybe more – I think that the plastic wallet was introduced in the mid 1960s. They finished production of this and other tools in the late ’60s / early ’70s.

    In any case, without ‘adjusting’ the existing depth-stop (which is what i would do) it will work perfectly well without it – you just estimate when to stop, or if you need accuracy, use a digital depth stop, sold for measuring tyre-treads.

    Good luck.

    #714973
    Patrick Lundrigan
    Participant

    thanks for takig a look!

    #714997
    Larry Geib
    Participant

    I can’t tell if the shoe portion is cast metal or mild steel. I also can’t tell which version of 050 you have, but here are two things to consider.

    I bought an 043 years ago that had a bent shoe and it just took a few whacks with a hammer while the post was in a vise to realign things. In your case, if the hole isn’t plumb, I’d just match the angle with the shoe.
    With mild steel, you might loosen the press fit ( I think that’s all they are, is press fit and peened a little) , but you can re-peen it or silver solder it if you have those skills. A little polishing after and it would be pretty hard to tell.
    I looked at EBay, and there are a couple for sale right now for an 050c if things go south in the attempt

    Alternatively, set your shoe aside for archival purposes and make a replacement to use. It’s not hard to make one from hardware available in a good hardware store for only a couple dollars.

    The shoe can be mild steel, brass, or aluminum bar cut to length. Something like 3/16” ( 6 or 6.5 mm) thick and the width of your shoe will do nicely. Cut and shape it to taste with a hacksaw and files.

    The secret of attaching the post is using a machinist dowel pin. There are hard steel pins that can be bought slightly oversized so they form a very solid attachment just by hammering them into the hole. One end is tapered slightly to hep you get them started. These are available in God’s UNC or heathen metric, in several sizes so use what you can find. For the remainder of this post I’ll reference UNC/ imperial. . I bet that’s what the original is.
    All of ther 5 closest hardware stores near me stock them . The local orange box store stocks a few in those Hillman hardware boxes most stores use to sell odd hardware. And they can be bought individually for about one sawbuck ea. They are cheaper in bulk. I have a plastic storage box full of them I use for jigs and such.

    The attached picture shows them from Grainger. Find a pin that fits in your plane’s hole. For a quarter inch hole in soft metals I buy .252 pins, or 2 thousandths (sometimes called .002 series) oversized. This size also works well in the denser hardwoods like African Blackwood or Cocobolo and their ilk. They are also available undersize for easy temporary fits.

    All that’s left is to align the hole to Match your plane. The easiest way, of course, is to use a drill press/ pillar drill and take your time with setup and shims.
    Lacking such a tool, a hardened bushing tool like a Gator tools V block or a doweling jig will work. Use what you have and shim appropriately.

    Drive the pin in the hole tapered end first. If you drive it past the taper a little you can sand, or grind the excess on coarse diamond plate for a neat job. The pins are hard tool steel, so they dull a file easily. A dremel tool will make quick work of it. The resulting connection will be as solid as the connection on your existing depth gauge . It might even be how Record made it.

    A picture I attach is of a spar gauge I made 25 years ago from 1/4” aluminum. The 3/16” ( .002” oversized ) pin is as solid as the day I drove it in the hole.
    And I post a 1/4” pin being measured in my calipers.

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